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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 2nd Feb 2019, 13:44
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I feel desperately sorry for the family of Dave Ibbotson who must have had no idea that he was putting himself into such danger. Because everybody is trying to pass the blame to someone else, we are probably seeing things that we shouldn’t. We know from the emails released that it was always planned to be a night flight so somebody has got Dave Ibbotson there by telling him or letting him believe that it was a daytime flight, knowing all along that it would be a nightime flight that he did not have the skills to undertake. It was so dangerous and so reckless. Yes, Dave Ibbotson should have said no but he probably spent the day wondering how to get out of it and I wonder if the reported RTOs were Dave Ibbotson knowing that he really wasn’t equipped to do it. If he had have survived as far as Cardiff, what were his chances if it was his first time ILS at night? In that weather?

Last edited by runway30; 2nd Feb 2019 at 13:47. Reason: Spelling
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 14:01
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Originally Posted by runway30
I feel desperately sorry for the family of Dave Ibbotson who must have had no idea that he was putting himself into such danger. Because everybody is trying to pass the blame to someone else, we are probably seeing things that we shouldn’t. We know from the emails released that it was always planned to be a night flight so somebody has got Dave Ibbotson there by telling him or letting him believe that it was a daytime flight, knowing all along that it would be a nightime flight that he did not have the skills to undertake. It was so dangerous and so reckless. Yes, Dave Ibbotson should have said no but he probably spent the day wondering how to get out of it and I wonder if the reported RTOs were Dave Ibbotson knowing that he really wasn’t equipped to do it. If he had have survived as far as Cardiff, what were his chances if it was his first time ILS at night? In that weather?

Likewise I very feel sorry him and his family, I also believe there must have been many other external pressures put on David for him to knowingly set off on a flight he was clearly not qualified in so many ways to undertake.

Those pressures most likely came from the football club brokers who organised the flight, his so called friend who asked him to do the flight, financial pressure from various sources, the whole thing sinks to high heaven and I do hope the people involved with arranging this flight are found guilty and jailed along with their assets taken off them and sold.

Although sadly the buck does stop with the pilot in command to say no I cannot do it today.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 14:24
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse
Just gave it a try, SD does compute the border crossing time, but it appears to not generate a waypoint at the border in the FPL route. The DCT point in the shown route is also not on the straight line between the two airports and it is not on the border crossing also.
Just tried the SD system in exactly the way you say & it came up with this, I always move the magenta line to the FIR to temporarily create a waypoint into the plog but didn't do this the second time to see what SD does.... that is ingenious that SD actually do the calc if you forget to



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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 14:59
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Interesting, mine does not do that automatically. What exactly did you do to generate that result?
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 15:18
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Originally Posted by Above The Clouds
Likewise I very feel sorry him and his family, I also believe there must have been many other external pressures put on David for him to knowingly set off on a flight he was clearly not qualified in so many ways to undertake.

Those pressures most likely came from the football club brokers who organised the flight, his so called friend who asked him to do the flight, financial pressure from various sources, the whole thing sinks to high heaven and I do hope the people involved with arranging this flight are found guilty and jailed along with their assets taken off them and sold.

Although sadly the buck does stop with the pilot in command to say no I cannot do it today.
I suspect quite a few of us have made rash decisions when it comes to our flying ( I know I have ! ) so I don't think Dave Ibbotson is the first person who got it totally wrong by being influenced by peer pressure ( put it this way, if Dave Ibbotson had successfully got Emiliano Sala to Cardiff he would have been the 'Hero' but because it has gone totally badly he is now being tarred by the 'Zero' brush ).

I can't even justifiably say I blame him for trying to make the flight, he was possibly under immense pressure to keep the 'wolf from the door' & this if conducted in daylight should have been an easy trip for him in VFR conditions, but when the goalposts are moved slightly it adds a bit more pressure on the pilot, I am thinking the goalposts weren't moved slightly but moved by a golden mile so the pressure would have been immense on Dave Ibbotson. If he genuinely thought he was flying back during daylight hours ( which I suspect he did, otherwise why file an 0900 flightplan? ) it is probably likely that the facts that a 1930 departure was already agreed weren't relayed to Dave Ibbotson until after he filed a 0900 FLIGHTPLAN.

Taking that he was asked if he fancied a ' Weekend in Nantes ' I would take that as fly out Saturday & return Sunday or early Monday at the latest. ( Monday hasn't ever been part of my weekend, but I have had a weekend away where I flew back first thing Monday ).

I am also hoping that the focus is on the right people when it gets to that stage, there are going to be quite a few names in the frame & I too would like them to be held responsible for their part in the Sala flight arrangements.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 15:36
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Much has been said about the legality or otherwise of cost sharing , the Wingly business potentially eroding safety margins for unsuspecting customers and all discussions relate to the carriage of Human passengers.
is there a potential for similar pseudo commercial flights being made between the Channel Islands and the UK ( and vice versa) for the carriage of animals?
The Jersey Aero club Facebook page now carries an advertisement posted on January 27 th asking for someone “ to pick up a puppy at Lydd on February 16 th” and presumably to fly it to Jersey.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 15:43
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse
Just gave it a try, SD does compute the border crossing time, but it appears to not generate a waypoint at the border in the FPL route. The DCT point in the shown route is also not on the straight line between the two airports and it is not on the border crossing also.
If you put that waypoint in using the Nddmmss Wdddmmss format it puts it 3.5nm to the east side of the DCT line but it is pretty much on the FIR Boundary line albeit 0.4nm off.

Are you using Nddmmss Wdddmmss or a different format ?
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 15:44
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Above The Clouds
Likewise I very feel sorry him and his family, I also believe there must have been many other external pressures put on David for him to knowingly set off on a flight he was clearly not qualified in so many ways to undertake.

Those pressures most likely came from the football club brokers who organised the flight, his so called friend who asked him to do the flight, financial pressure from various sources, the whole thing sinks to high heaven and I do hope the people involved with arranging this flight are found guilty and jailed along with their assets taken off them and sold.

Although sadly the buck does stop with the pilot in command to say no I cannot do it today.
Truthseeker
I suspect quite a few of us have made rash decisions when it comes to our flying ( I know I have ! ) so I don't think Dave Ibbotson is the first person who got it totally wrong by being influenced by peer pressure ( put it this way, if Dave Ibbotson had successfully got Emiliano Sala to Cardiff he would have been the 'Hero' but because it has gone totally badly he is now being tarred by the 'Zero' brush ).
Were have I tarred him with a zero brush ?
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 17:33
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Thanks runway 30 for this info . This is a screenshot from the French RFSTA flight plan database, showing the basic info and nor all the fields.filed . Once thing : No guarantee this is the actual flight plan used , unless it was delayed many times ( this particular PLN would have expired at 0930. )
Possibly a different PLN was filed for a dep at 19:00 or so, and this one could have been IFR , this could explain the rumors heard of 2 PLN s. . but just speculating.
Anyway it shows the pilot filed that the aircraft was mode S equipped, which is what I was after. If it was on the BEA would knows pretty much where the aircraft is .
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 18:20
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Originally Posted by Above The Clouds
Were have I tarred him with a zero brush ?
I didn't say you had......... it was a generalisation that if he had got Sala to Cardiff everyone would have saying what a great guy Dave Ibbotson was......because he failed to get him there, they are all slagging him off.

The people who should be getting slagged off are those who put Dave Ibbotson into this untenable situation, if he thought he was flying in daylight he was going to be operating within his capabilities, as soon as it became a night flight he was outside his legal capabilities but he foolishly took a chance.....now if the organisers knew he was a DAY VFR only pilot I would hope they get a deserving punishment for having such a blatant disregard for his wellbeing, the same has to be said for putting anyone in a situation where they have put their trust in an organiser to get them somewhere by reliable means.
It makes no diference if the passenger is the School Janitor or a £15m Footballer, their life has the same value to their loved ones.

Dave Ibbotson's family will have to pick up the pieces & I feel really sorry for them, the organisers of the flight will have to be held responsible for their part in all this & if all the journalist content from the McKays is all factual I would hope it puts an end to his unsavoury antics.... If Football club owners are reading the remarks from Willie McKay I would hope they cease dealings with him as his remarks highlight he only see's their transfers as his ' easy money '
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 19:27
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Originally Posted by Flap 80
Much has been said about the legality or otherwise of cost sharing , the Wingly business potentially eroding safety margins for unsuspecting customers and all discussions relate to the carriage of Human passengers.
is there a potential for similar pseudo commercial flights being made between the Channel Islands and the UK ( and vice versa) for the carriage of animals?
The Jersey Aero club Facebook page now carries an advertisement posted on January 27 th asking for someone “ to pick up a puppy at Lydd on February 16 th” and presumably to fly it to Jersey.
My aunt (who lives in St Brelade) had a spaniel delivered by PA32 flown by someone from the aeroclub who did it as a favour for an elderly lady. Pick up was in Exeter. She was going to give him a bottle of scotch, when I told her how much the flight should have cost for him and his wife to go for lunch she made it a very good bottle of scotch, and I believe his wife cost him a superb bottle of Margeaux do go with the lamb she had at a rather nice eatery in Devon.

No money changed hands in my aunt's case, but I wonder if it has formed an idea on the minds of others.

SND
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 20:26
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
Anyway it shows the pilot filed that the aircraft was mode S equipped, which is what I was after. If it was on the BEA would knows pretty much where the aircraft is.
Do you mean it had Mode S, or if it had ADS-B? (see yesterday's helpful post re the difference between the two). Only ADS-B, if so equipped, would help the investigation with the location.

That said, and notwithstanding what the FPL said, I have trouble believing the aircraft even had functioning basic Mode S. N264DB has been based in the UK for several years, and photographed at a range of airfields, but I have yet to see any evidence of it sending even basic altitude/squawk/callsign data over Mode S.

Its allocated ICAO24 address was A28E26 - if anyone can find a record of Mode S transmissions from that address at any time in the last few years, I'd be interested to hear where from.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 20:48
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DaveReidUK, no, if it was equipped with Mode S alone ( so ADS-B) you can determine pretty accurately the location as you can deduct/calculate ground speed and rate of descend pretty accurately ( 25ft increments) that is want I meant.
Now whether r it had one or not, a PLN is just telling us what the pilot filed. not what actually is in the aircraft..
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 21:01
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
DaveReidUK, no, if it was equipped with Mode S alone ( so ADS-B) you can determine pretty accurately the location as you can deduct/calculate ground speed and rate of descend pretty accurately ( 25ft increments) that is want I meant.
Now whether r it had one or not, a PLN is just telling us what the pilot filed. not what actually is in the aircraft..
OK, thanks for clarifying.

Though I'm still not sure how knowing only altitude from basic Mode S can help with determining location.

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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 21:20
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Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1
I didn't say you had......... it was a generalisation that if he had got Sala to Cardiff everyone would have saying what a great guy Dave Ibbotson was......because he failed to get him there, they are all slagging him off.

The people who should be getting slagged off are those who put Dave Ibbotson into this untenable situation, if he thought he was flying in daylight he was going to be operating within his capabilities, as soon as it became a night flight he was outside his legal capabilities but he foolishly took a chance.....now if the organisers knew he was a DAY VFR only pilot I would hope they get a deserving punishment for having such a blatant disregard for his wellbeing, the same has to be said for putting anyone in a situation where they have put their trust in an organiser to get them somewhere by reliable means.
It makes no diference if the passenger is the School Janitor or a £15m Footballer, their life has the same value to their loved ones.

Dave Ibbotson's family will have to pick up the pieces & I feel really sorry for them, the organisers of the flight will have to be held responsible for their part in all this & if all the journalist content from the McKays is all factual I would hope it puts an end to his unsavoury antics.... If Football club owners are reading the remarks from Willie McKay I would hope they cease dealings with him as his remarks highlight he only see's their transfers as his ' easy money '
As pilot in Command he can only blame himsel if he operated beyond the limits of his license. Unfortunately he was involved in the death of a totally innocent passenger, if the pilot had survived and been found to be operating outside his qualifications then he would have been looking at a man slaughter charge.

Leave public transport to the true professionals who follow the rules.

Originally Posted by Flap 80
Much has been said about the legality or otherwise of cost sharing , the Wingly business potentially eroding safety margins for unsuspecting customers and all discussions relate to the carriage of Human passengers.
is there a potential for similar pseudo commercial flights being made between the Channel Islands and the UK ( and vice versa) for the carriage of animals?
The Jersey Aero club Facebook page now carries an advertisement posted on January 27 th asking for someone “ to pick up a puppy at Lydd on February 16 th” and presumably to fly it to Jersey.
That dog is freight, therefore the flight would be illegal if they accept any money unless operated by a commercial pilot in an aircraft on an AOC.

Some of us spent thousands becoming commercial pilots It's time the CAA took an interest and stopped these PPL's taking work illegally off professional pilots.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 21:43
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Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1
I didn't say you had......... it was a generalisation that if he had got Sala to Cardiff everyone would have saying what a great guy Dave Ibbotson was......because he failed to get him there, they are all slagging him off.

The people who should be getting slagged off are those who put Dave Ibbotson into this untenable situation, if he thought he was flying in daylight he was going to be operating within his capabilities, as soon as it became a night flight he was outside his legal capabilities but he foolishly took a chance.....now if the organisers knew he was a DAY VFR only pilot I would hope they get a deserving punishment for having such a blatant disregard for his wellbeing, the same has to be said for putting anyone in a situation where they have put their trust in an organiser to get them somewhere by reliable means.
It makes no diference if the passenger is the School Janitor or a £15m Footballer, their life has the same value to their loved ones."
I agree that the agents and everyone else deserves to be punished, but Dave Ibbotson committed a criminal act in taking on this flight, his social media posts about lack of practise were foolish, he must have known where he stood legally. Henderson and McKay have a lot to answer for, but the pilot is ultimately responsible for his actions. In an earlier post you used the term "he was acting as a pilot" I'd agree, it was an act, he was neither qualified, nor competent to be there, just like all the actors in Top Gun, Airplane 74, 77, The High and the Mighty etc etc. They were acting a part, not competent or qualified as pilots. I know how horrendous commercial pressure on a single pilot, charter operation can be, I've lived it for years, it's where I earn my living, but I also know how protected I am if I say no. I've told customers "I'm not paid enough to die for you." like another poster on this thread I've gladly accepted unemployment rather than face flying for a total arse who won't listen when I tell him something is either illegal or potentially lethal (total arse's next pilot killed him when he hit a mountain flying outside his qualifications and the aircraft flight manual.)

If Ibbotson had made Cardiff he wouldn't have been a hero, just another criminal pilot who hasn't been caught yet. Seems harsh, but I'm responsible for a lot of staff on an AOC struggling because of law breaking like this. I do feel sorry for his family because by his actions he's left them not just with the horrendous loss and mess to deal with, but because he left them with that loss and mess by knowingly breaking the law, and that will tarnish everything for them.

SND
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 22:05
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I just checked my (French) life insurance policy. The relevant exclusion is
lorsque le pilote ne possède pas de brevet ou de licence pour l’appareil utilisé
et/ou si le véhicule aérien (...) ne dispose pas de certificat valable de navigabilité
(...)
"if the pilot does not have a diploma or licence for the aircraft in question and/or if the aircraft does not possess a valid airworthiness certificate"

So it doesn't say anything about whether the licence is appropriate for commercial operations or anything resembling an AOC, so far as I can tell, does it?
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 22:24
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Council Van & SND
Exactly the point I’m making.The PA46 flight was not a one off.
Look at the September 2018 newsletter for the Jersey Aero Club.They had a presence at Air Expo 2018, look what they say about Wingly, “ it’s basic principle is to unite Pilots with people who wish to travel and the conveyance of Cats and Dogs”
Please don’t suggest that this is done for free.
The tip of the iceberg has started to melt.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 23:13
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Originally Posted by Flap 80
Council Van & SND
Exactly the point I’m making.The PA46 flight was not a one off.
Look at the September 2018 newsletter for the Jersey Aero Club.They had a presence at Air Expo 2018, look what they say about Wingly, “ it’s basic principle is to unite Pilots with people who wish to travel and the conveyance of Cats and Dogs”
Please don’t suggest that this is done for free.
The tip of the iceberg has started to melt.
Check my earlier posts on this thread, and others about cost sharing. Illegal Public Transport has always gone on, The relaxation of rules around cost sharing has created a worse situation. These pilots and aircraft operators are criminals and should be treated as such,. A view I'll share with the CAA on Monday when I start a three day programme of training with them

SND
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 23:13
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Originally Posted by Eutychus
I just checked my (French) life insurance policy. The relevant exclusion is

"if the pilot does not have a diploma or licence for the aircraft in question and/or if the aircraft does not possess a valid airworthiness certificate"

So it doesn't say anything about whether the licence is appropriate for commercial operations or anything resembling an AOC, so far as I can tell, does it?
Some aircraft require a specific type validation/endorsement on a pilots licence. If your flights aircraft required a pilot to have that specific type endorsement, and they had it, and it was current, for your personal insurance you’re probably covered. To fly for hire or reward, your pilot needs a commercial license, and potentially a type endorsement for the aircraft they’re flying. If they don’t have one and you/dependants have to make a claim against them, the pilot is potentially not going to be covered as his insurance is unlikely to cover ‘hire or reward’ flights. The insurance companies would no doubt go head to head on whether the pilot was adequately insured. I imagine somewhere there is existing Uk case law on this sort of claim dispute.


The airworthiness certificate is in simple terms the aircrafts MOT, if that isn’t current then you’re highly unlikely to be covered, as your insurer specifies the aircraft must have an airworthiness certificate, or presumably its equivalent such as a ‘permit to fly’. The CofA (cert of airworthiness) is part of the ships ‘log’ and should be easily accessible, together with the aircrafts insurance documents. These are the sorts of documents that can be spot checked by appropriate authority inspectors at any airport. The pilots personal qualifications don’t form part of the aircraft documentation, but go hand in hand and a thorough ramp check should pick up anomaly’s such as is this pilot, qualified, and insured to operate this aircraft at this date and time.
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