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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 31st Jan 2019, 15:45
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Originally Posted by S-Works
Where is your evidence of Dibbo flying long distance ferry flights including trans Atlantic? I think you are confusing him with Dave Henderson who is a very experienced ferry pilot as you describe.

What we do have in the public domain now is a colour blind non instrument rated pilot flying at night in IMC which does certainly agree with your assessment of confidence exceeding ability.
I think it is more a case of commercial pressure exceeding ability which is why how this flight was organised IS a safety related issue.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 15:56
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I am beginning to think "ShropshirePilot" is not seeing the conspiracy where one exists. This is a forum where everyone can voice an opinion, so I will voice an opinion that ShropshirePilot doesn't know his Ibbotson from his Henderson I would very much doubt Ibbotson has completed any ferry flight via Goose Bay/Narsarsuaq in his own right? Careful wording of " in his own right " There is maybe an element of discrepancy in ShropshirePilot thinking that Ibbotson had undertaken a flight where the name Henderson was most likely on the paperwork?
So,from what I understand I think this is very much in question. WMcK thinks he has contracted Henderson to do the flying & when the ecrement hits the fan he finds out that Ibbotson was the pilot ! Now, if nothing had gone wrong I doubt it would have mattered nor would it have been an issue.
There is so much that is being discussed privately that cannot be discussed publicly on here, nor should it be discussed in the public domain whilst subterfuge or chicanery might be part & parcel of the investigation. It will be interesting to see how much supposition becomes fact & how much supposition is proven to be inconclusive.
If most of the suppositions do become facts it will not bring back Ibbotson or Sala but it will be a 'can of worms' for the people of both families & no doubt a long drawn out legal battle for the organisers of the flight & the agents involved.

Originally Posted by red9
Where does the colour blindness bit come from ?
A very reliable source has mentioned that in a private conversation ( take that as 'reliable source' has concrete proof of that ).
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 16:12
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I'm a pilot. I know other pilots, we are a fairly small community.

Mr Thruthseeker appears not to be one according to his published profile.

Suffice to say my source is good and reliable from within the flying fraternity.

My suspicion is that many people are relying on the Press. I am not a fan of Trump or his notion of "fake nooz" but when it comes to GA matters the press are somewhat half-witted.

I am not confusing the two named people.

Like I said, this is all very sad. And on that bombshell I am leaving this thread to others. QSY

Last edited by ShropshirePilot; 31st Jan 2019 at 16:27. Reason: Adding a sign off.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 16:32
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Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1
I am beginning to think "ShropshirePilot" is not seeing the conspiracy where one exists. This is a forum where everyone can voice an opinion, so I will voice an opinion that ShropshirePilot doesn't know his Ibbotson from his Henderson I would very much doubt Ibbotson has completed any ferry flight via Goose Bay/Narsarsuaq in his own right? Careful wording of " in his own right " There is maybe an element of discrepancy in ShropshirePilot thinking that Ibbotson had undertaken a flight where the name Henderson was most likely on the paperwork?
So,from what I understand I think this is very much in question. WMcK thinks he has contracted Henderson to do the flying & when the ecrement hits the fan he finds out that Ibbotson was the pilot ! Now, if nothing had gone wrong I doubt it would have mattered nor would it have been an issue.
There is so much that is being discussed privately that cannot be discussed publicly on here, nor should it be discussed in the public domain whilst subterfuge or chicanery might be part & parcel of the investigation. It will be interesting to see how much supposition becomes fact & how much supposition is proven to be inconclusive.
If most of the suppositions do become facts it will not bring back Ibbotson or Sala but it will be a 'can of worms' for the people of both families & no doubt a long drawn out legal battle for the organisers of the flight & the agents involved.



A very reliable source has mentioned that in a private conversation ( take that as 'reliable source' has concrete proof of that ).
It may well be that the evidence in the end does not pass the threshold but I would think that the police will investigate offences of manslaughter by negligence and conspiracy.
Originally Posted by ShropshirePilot
I'm a pilot. I know other pilots, we are a fairly small community.

Mr Thruthseeker appears not to be one according to his published profile.

Suffice to say my source is good and reliable from within the flying fraternity.

My suspicion is that many people are relying on the Press. I am not a fan of Trump or his notion of "fake nooz" but when it comes to GA matters the press are somewhat half-witted.

I am not confusing the two named people.

Like I said, this is all very sad. And on that bombshell I am leaving this thread to others. QSY
Shropshire, if you don’t have an AOC then don’t fly whole aircraft charters, if you don’t have a commercial licence then don’t fly for hire and reward and if your rating has expired then don’t use it. We do not have a system where you are only partly dangerous if you depend on skills that you previously had or wish you had.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 16:56
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
It always has been possible, before EASA and now, for a private flight to take anybody you want on board , as long at it is not a commercial operation . Indications seem to indicate this was not a commercial operation but a private one.
If something goes wrong on a private flight , it is always the PIC who is responsible, not the owner of the aircraft or "the usual pilot" .
the decision to fly VFR in IMC, or to file an IFR flight plan when you are not qualified lays only with the PIC and nobody else.
Now if you can prove money change hands and it was a commercial operation , there it is a very different story.
Need to remember that until the WINGLY LAW was introduced sharing the cost of a flight wasn't even allowed - that's what I think they tried to introduce it but the horse bolted.

Also noticed over the last couple of days that new folk joining the conversation might have not picked up on the fact that it's an N REG aircraft so much of the recent discussion ref. EASA, Wingly, sharing, expenses, etc., does not really apply.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 17:10
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Originally Posted by Good Business Sense
Need to remember that until the WINGLY LAW was introduced sharing the cost of a flight wasn't even allowed - that's what I think they tried to introduce it but the horse bolted.

Also noticed over the last couple of days that new folk joining the conversation might have not picked up on the fact that it's an N REG aircraft so much of the recent discussion ref. EASA, Wingly, sharing, expenses, etc., does not really apply.
Good reminder GBS, there is no way in which this flight could meet the FAA definition of common purpose. As soon as the McKays made a statement that they did not own the aircraft and did not select pilot or aircraft, even though they have amended that to selected a different pilot, there is no way that this flight could have been conducted legally. The aircraft is an orphan, we thus have a very unusual situation, ten days after the accident where we have no idea who the aircraft owner is.

Last edited by runway30; 31st Jan 2019 at 17:12. Reason: Mangled English
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 17:18
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo
Surely still wouldn't have been legal if Henderson had flown it due to the FAA's strict rule of exactly equal share of costs (Sala told flight was 'free' to him), pilot put up in hotac at someone else's expense (valuable consideration/expenses) and inability to prove travel was for a common purpose.

Even if Mc Kay does own the aircraft and Henderson is his pilot it could only be a legal corporate flight if Henderson flew it, which he did not. Does Henderson have a FAA licence? Anyhoo, what of the status of the outbound leg on the Eclipse? Every chance that it was just as dodgy as the accident flight.

Finaly, how - just how did Henderson's id get checked at Nantes? We've been told by Ffrench authorities that three peoples' id were whecked for the flight but only 2 flew. This must be a significant part of the strory.

Sala's girlfriend's remark about the football mafia is telling too - sounds very much like she's seen and heard things from people she dislikes and mistrusts intensely and she believes them involved in htis 'charter". I wonder who that could possibly be?
I would think it is academic as to who was paying the pilot in this instance, it could be as simple as WMcK asking his personal pilot to fly someone to & fro, whether WMcK has his personal pilot on a retainer is a question that I suspect has already been asked. Now if the personal pilot then subcontracts the work to someone else is another question that the person giving out the job needs to be answerable to, it would seem the personal pilot of WMcK is the one who was paying the costs for the actual pilot from his funds, I guess another question is " Who gave the personal pilot the funds to give to the actual pilot? " Someone was certainly the Paymaster & it is either the McKay's or Henderson himself.
Where it gets messy is if WMcK thinks he has paid his personal pilot to do the flying, if the personal pilot then gives the work out to a subcontractor unbeknown to WMcK it then becomes a case of the buck stops with the personal pilot. The HOTAC really doesn't matter one iota because whilst Dave Ibbotson was away from home he had to stay somewhere & he wasn't gaining financially from the HOTAC charges.

It is assumed that Dave Henderson does have an FAA Licence, I suspect his details have been pulled from the FAA Database because there isn't any visible records that show him being FAA licenced with a UK address but that isn't to say he isn't one of the US addressed David Henderson's in the database.

The Eclipse flights aren't a bone of contention, they weren't the accident flight & were invariably operated by IR pilots ( maybe DH was in the Eclipse on those flights in some capacity? ) It seems apparent that the Eclipse was a 'pick up & go' where it arrived in Nantes & Emiliano Sala was rumoured as being escorted to the aircraft & then flown to Cardiff so the crew might have never gone landside at Nantes?

The 3 sets of ID's is an area where a lot of questions are being asked, the big question is " Was there 3 different people seen by the French Airport officials or were 3 ID's shown by 2 different people? " Now any French Airport official would instantly recognise Emiliano Sala but would they really know who the other person/s showing them ID's are?
If 3 males were standing in front of the Airport officials that would explain the 3 ID's but if there were only 2 males in front of them I would guess they would only see 2 ID's ?
Now supposition could be that 3 ID's were shown during the transit through the airport but not to the same airport officials?
I have myself shown an ID card as identification at one part of an airport & then used a different ID at another part of the airport. This could be my passport at the first point of contact & then my pilots licence at the second point of contact. Both my ID's show my name clearly...... Let's play devils advocate here, What if the first ID was the pilots passport at point one & then at point two he showed the ID in the form of the Pilots licence of AN.Other who has an IR so he could file IFR? it might be a bizarre thought but it would explain the 3rd ID being seen & also feasible to cover the initial filing of an IFR Flightplan. I am not saying that is what happened but it is plausible.

Most of the issue is " Where was Dave Henderson whilst all this was going on? " Was he the 3rd person or was he never in Nantes? It seems categoric that his ID was checked by some Airport official, it would be useful to know if it was his passport or his pilots licence or perhaps his driving licence? I doubt very much it was his Library card or his Starbucks loyalty card or even his credit/debit card they saw?
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 17:36
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TRUTHSEEKER1 DH is recorded as saying he hasnt been to Nantes for more than a year
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 17:45
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Originally Posted by runway30
ten days after the accident where we have no idea who the aircraft owner is.
"Ms Fay Keely of Coolflourish Limited" see post #234.

There was a personal bio of of Ms Keely on a company website stating she is a pilot but it was removed a few days ago. Strange coincidence...
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 17:49
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TRUTHSEEKER1
It seems categoric that his ID was checked by some Airport official,
Where did you get that " categoric" from ? news media ?
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 18:08
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Originally Posted by red9
TRUTHSEEKER1 DH is recorded as saying he hasnt been to Nantes for more than a year
I have read that myself so it now opens up an investigation into how his ID was visibly checked by a French Airport official? If it has been submitted as an ID I think it is fair to say that it wasn't Emiliano Sala who submitted it as his ID so it to some degree points towards the Pilot having mistakenly shown an incorrect ID at some point of his transit through the airport?

That can be the only feasible explanation? Now it is apparent that Dave Henderson has flown the accident aircraft previously so maybe, just maybe, he had dropped his ID in the aircraft & the accident pilot had also dropped his own ID in the aircraft & whilst looking for his saw an identical ID to his & picked it up thinking it was his ID. ( highly unlikely, but stranger things have happened before )

I will put on record that I was in Cannes with an aircraft where I know I was there because my co-pilot has pictures of me messing about in the hotel pool, as far as Cannes Airport are concerned ' I wasn't there because they only checked my co-pilots ID ' when we passed through the airside gate.
So I could quite easily say " I wasn't in Cannes " even though I know I was
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 18:08
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General comment I have never been on the GA apron in the departure airport.

Its more than likely they needed to get a "visitors pass" and escorted to the aircraft on the apron.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 18:09
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As has been shown 'everyone' is learning from this bulletin board
As a recently qualified PPL(A) intending to progress to IR (purely recreational purposes only) I am learning a tremendous amount from the discussions on this forum, and this thread is no exception. It's the main reason I 'lurk'.

I know there have to be limits, but it would be shame to stifle the conversation too much. Perhaps nothing can beat personal experience, but there are many situations discussed in this thread where I am quite happy to learn second hand! As well as learning more about flight ops, my eyes have been opened to the extent - and complexity - of the regulations surrounding GA. What I studied for the PPL Air Law exam is much less than 1% of real-world regulation. Honestly, I now feel that flying the aeroplane is the easy part!

Some more experienced forumites may think many discussion points are tedious and futile, but believe me they are an excellent learning resource for new pilots and long may they continue.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 18:09
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Originally Posted by CBSITCB
"Ms Fay Keely of Coolflourish Limited" see post #234.

There was a personal bio of of Ms Keely on a company website stating she is a pilot but it was removed a few days ago. Strange coincidence...
I have also been told that and I have also been told that she is not the ultimate beneficial owner but nobody has shown me any evidence.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 18:13
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
TRUTHSEEKER1
Where did you get that " categoric" from ? news media ?
From an Official resource, await the official accident report & it will say so.

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Old 31st Jan 2019, 18:17
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Originally Posted by CBSITCB
"Ms Fay Keely of Coolflourish Limited" see post #234.

There was a personal bio of of Ms Keely on a company website stating she is a pilot but it was removed a few days ago. Strange coincidence...
try using archive.org and there may be a copy cached.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 18:50
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IF there is any doubt there is no doubt

Originally Posted by CBSITCB
As a recently qualified PPL(A) intending to progress to IR (purely recreational purposes only) I am learning a tremendous amount from the discussions on this forum, and this thread is no exception. It's the main reason I 'lurk'.

I know there have to be limits, but it would be shame to stifle the conversation too much. Perhaps nothing can beat personal experience, but there are many situations discussed in this thread where I am quite happy to learn second hand! As well as learning more about flight ops, my eyes have been opened to the extent - and complexity - of the regulations surrounding GA. What I studied for the PPL Air Law exam is much less than 1% of real-world regulation. Honestly, I now feel that flying the aeroplane is the easy part!

Some more experienced forumites may think many discussion points are tedious and futile, but believe me they are an excellent learning resource for new pilots and long may they continue.
The adage ‘if there is any doubt there is no doubt’ was the best advice I was given when I learned to fly. Having scanned the conditions proposed route and FL I would be amazed if there were no doubts.

The PPL is a licence to learn and using your judgement wisely to manage the risks is key. I’ve only once flown in icing conditions on an IMC training flight. We had details of the freezing level and the cloud level so knew it was a factor. We also had ‘space’ to descend out of the cloud to warmer air. I was surprised how quickly the ice started to accumulate and grateful that I had an experienced instructor with me, it was daylight and we had agreed to plan before setting off. We were also getting an ATC service at the time. We were initially requested to climb into to the cloud as it was the height required for the ILS procedure we were following. ATC promptly allowed us to descend when we explained our situation.

i hope the accident report uncovers the series of events which led to this tragedy but I suspect judgement and decision making will come into play.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 19:01
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Originally Posted by runway30
I also saw it before it was deleted but just because she has a PPL doesn’t connect her in any way to this accident.
Agreed.

There are (at least) two strands to this thread. The first is the “professional pilots” strand to do with flight ops, aviation, safety, etc. The other is the “rumour” strand where the discussion is more general and has piqued the interest of some of us, which sets the purely aviation aspects into a wider context. We are ‘investigating’ that too.

Fay Keely is just one of the many post-it notes on the wall; a small factoid. It is down to Inspector Knacker to draw a line to another of the post-it notes, or several, or none.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 19:12
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On Facebook just now saw an advert for a Pilatus for dry hire, no mention of an AOC, G-reg. Renter to organise fuel and the pilot, insurance (which one) for the plane owner. Interesting blog also on the webpage.https://flexifly.co.uk/hire-agreement/ , I had to think about this thread, even though a turbine is better than piston. I happen to be a lapsed PPL, but many unsuspecting non-pilots may not know the additional differences between a charter and dry hire. Is it safe enough?
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 19:18
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https://web.archive.org/web/20180331...uk/who-we-are/

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