Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
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My point was more to do with this pilot apparently not considering staying over land for as long as possible, thus making the intended channel crossing as short as possible. This wouldn't have taken the plane far off of it's direct route, the route it looks like it took and which led to the plane being over the open sea when whatever problem occurred. It appears that had he done this (and assuming an engine failure was the problem), then he would probably have been able to make a forced landing on the French mainland ... not an easy thing to do at night of course but a far better option than being forced to ditch in the open sea.
If it was some kind of structural failure which occurred then there was nothing that could have been done of course but the chances of that occurring are statistically very small indeed.
If it was some kind of structural failure which occurred then there was nothing that could have been done of course but the chances of that occurring are statistically very small indeed.
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ATC Watcher .... There seem to be many possibilities for this tragedy and the fact that no Mayday call was made (?) is significant. One possibility could be that the pilot had a massive heart attack for example ... this would certainly explain the absence of a Mayday call. But the icing which you mention as a possibility seems very unlikely to me. If the aircraft had been at 5000 feet and then descended to around 2,300 feet as reported, and I assume it was travelling at cruise speed, is it likely that icing would have caused a stall? Yes, had he been at low airspeed, for example on an approach, I could see that as a possibility but for an aircraft to stall due to ice build up, at a cruising speed of around 170 knots+ at that height ... I doubt that ... but then I'm no expert. A massive build up of ice could cause the stall you refer to but is this massive build up likely in that location at that time and at that height?
I have no idea what the weather reports said for that time, have you read anything on this matter?
I have no idea what the weather reports said for that time, have you read anything on this matter?
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Rather close to the knucle I`d have thought, particularly given it is coming from a chartered accountant. Must remember this is a public forum and one`s got to know a willie from a winkle for the sake of the Life of Brian. One of my favourites is the chartered accountant lion tamer wannabe sketch.
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TRUTHSEEKER ... You are right in saying that the exact route of the aircraft hasn't yet been established. I have assumed and perhaps wrongly, that it flew from Nantes to the reported point of its loss in a straight line, as if we extend that line it appears that it lines up perfectly with Cardiff in Wales, his destination of course.
I wasn't suggesting that there was the possibility that the aircraft had made it to land, it seems that the plane went into the sea to the west of Alderney ... I said that had the pilot chosen to stay over land for as long as possible instead of possibly making a direct flight to Cardiff and which took him over the sea for much of it, then given where the plane was reported to be when contact was lost, they would have found themselves over land or at least within gliding distance of it and capable of making a forced landing in France.
To be clear, had the pilot flown almost directly north from Nantes he'd have been at approximately the same latitude as that indicated by reports of where the plane was 'lost', to the west of Alderney, and still over land. As I've said, this would also have given him the shortest possible Channel crossing, i.e. around 60 miles, changing his heading for Portland in Dorset once he'd started his flight over the Channel.
I wasn't suggesting that there was the possibility that the aircraft had made it to land, it seems that the plane went into the sea to the west of Alderney ... I said that had the pilot chosen to stay over land for as long as possible instead of possibly making a direct flight to Cardiff and which took him over the sea for much of it, then given where the plane was reported to be when contact was lost, they would have found themselves over land or at least within gliding distance of it and capable of making a forced landing in France.
To be clear, had the pilot flown almost directly north from Nantes he'd have been at approximately the same latitude as that indicated by reports of where the plane was 'lost', to the west of Alderney, and still over land. As I've said, this would also have given him the shortest possible Channel crossing, i.e. around 60 miles, changing his heading for Portland in Dorset once he'd started his flight over the Channel.
Last edited by keni010; 29th Jan 2019 at 22:11.
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Have the timelines become public knowledge of exactly what time Emiliano Sala was sending the whatsapp message where the message included the aircraft was shaking?
Has anyone mentioned whether they know whether Emiliano Sala took the Co-pilot seat or whether he was sitting in the club seating area?
Has Dave Henderson reappeared yet? his insight into the movements of N264DB might hold the key to a lot of unanswered questions.
Has anyone mentioned whether they know whether Emiliano Sala took the Co-pilot seat or whether he was sitting in the club seating area?
Has Dave Henderson reappeared yet? his insight into the movements of N264DB might hold the key to a lot of unanswered questions.
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keni010,
Taking the straight line ( as near as dammit ) highlights that 2 sectors of notable water crossing of 52nm & 74nm would be planned.
I have to say that up until now I wouldn't have given a second thought about doing a straightline journey between Nantes and Cardiff, I would have used the 89nm initial sector to get a bit of altitude though, however I have seen VFR pilots who would stay VFR if the cloudbase was 5000ft or less as long as the MSA was below the base of the cloud.
The big question is : " Would you think it is safer for a VFR pilot to go up into IMC than try to stay VFR below the crud? This again is a supposition because it is unknown whether Dave Ibbotson has an IMC or Instrument Rating?
There are so many unanswered questions that are being answered by differing scenario's that it might be better if we all now wait for the Authorities findings & reports to be published.
Taking the straight line ( as near as dammit ) highlights that 2 sectors of notable water crossing of 52nm & 74nm would be planned.
I have to say that up until now I wouldn't have given a second thought about doing a straightline journey between Nantes and Cardiff, I would have used the 89nm initial sector to get a bit of altitude though, however I have seen VFR pilots who would stay VFR if the cloudbase was 5000ft or less as long as the MSA was below the base of the cloud.
The big question is : " Would you think it is safer for a VFR pilot to go up into IMC than try to stay VFR below the crud? This again is a supposition because it is unknown whether Dave Ibbotson has an IMC or Instrument Rating?
There are so many unanswered questions that are being answered by differing scenario's that it might be better if we all now wait for the Authorities findings & reports to be published.
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Truthseaker1
For those of us who have been around General Aviation for a good few years there is very little mystery as to the technical reasons for this accident, your last post talked of the aircraft shaking, this could quite easily have been the engine being difficult to start, this is not at all unusual with the larger injected engines.
Many above have described how a pilot without any formal instrument qualification decided to cruise an aircraft designed to fly much higher at the perfect altitude to accumulate ice and a then decided to descend ( probably a under marginal control ) to melt the ice. It’s hardly a surprise that under these conditions the aircraft was flown into the sea ether unable to maintain altitude due to the accumulated ice of because the pilot exceeded his skill level and lost control.
If you want to get to the truth of the matter the technical issues are of little relevance because they are merely the logical conclusion to the actions of a trail of people who have decided to cheapskate on transport and who commissioned an unqualified pilot to fly and aircraft that his licence and experience did not allow him to fly safely.
Many above have described how a pilot without any formal instrument qualification decided to cruise an aircraft designed to fly much higher at the perfect altitude to accumulate ice and a then decided to descend ( probably a under marginal control ) to melt the ice. It’s hardly a surprise that under these conditions the aircraft was flown into the sea ether unable to maintain altitude due to the accumulated ice of because the pilot exceeded his skill level and lost control.
If you want to get to the truth of the matter the technical issues are of little relevance because they are merely the logical conclusion to the actions of a trail of people who have decided to cheapskate on transport and who commissioned an unqualified pilot to fly and aircraft that his licence and experience did not allow him to fly safely.
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I fly for an AOC, most of the brokers who use us have our AOC certificate and insurance on file, direct customers get a copies with their written charter agreement. That certificate takes some getting, is very easy to lose, is expensive, has specifically named personnel as post holders, all of whom qualify for the positions they hold and are accountable in law. The pilots operate to an accepted Operations Manual, and their duty and training records are subject to both internal and external audit, along with SMS, mandatory maintenance contracts, and sometimes, at our expense we are audited by organisations such as Wyvern, who audit us on behalf of large corporations and key man insurers to ensure we are up to snuff.
Basically the same procedures and licensing processes as BA, Virgin, EasyJet, Tui, FlyBe and all the rest, but in a company a fraction of the size. I'm one of the post holders and sometimes when I'm drowning in paperwork, regulated to a high shine I see the "illegal" operators around and have to fight back a huge temptation to beat the pilots to death with the Ops Manual. What stops me is that a criminal record would make AOC employment a touch difficult, and I couldn't drop my standards to where those pilots are.
SND
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Plenty of pilots with commercial licenses and IR's doing dodgy charter, it's the AOC certificate the passengers need to see. While a commercial license (or ATPL) assures a certain level of knowledge and training the full legal protection is given by the AOC, and on an AOC flight if you aren't at least a CPL you're not sitting in the pilot's seat. I have no doubt the pilots of the Eclipse that flew Sala to Cardiff were commercially licensed, what I doubt is that it was an AOC flight, and therefore, probably as legally dubious as the PA46 flight.
I fly for an AOC, most of the brokers who use us have our AOC certificate and insurance on file, direct customers get a copies with their written charter agreement. That certificate takes some getting, is very easy to lose, is expensive, has specifically named personnel as post holders, all of whom qualify for the positions they hold and are accountable in law. The pilots operate to an accepted Operations Manual, and their duty and training records are subject to both internal and external audit, along with SMS, mandatory maintenance contracts, and sometimes, at our expense we are audited by organisations such as Wyvern, who audit us on behalf of large corporations and key man insurers to ensure we are up to snuff.
Basically the same procedures and licensing processes as BA, Virgin, EasyJet, Tui, FlyBe and all the rest, but in a company a fraction of the size. I'm one of the post holders and sometimes when I'm drowning in paperwork, regulated to a high shine I see the "illegal" operators around and have to fight back a huge temptation to beat the pilots to death with the Ops Manual. What stops me is that a criminal record would make AOC employment a touch difficult, and I couldn't drop my standards to where those pilots are.
SND
I fly for an AOC, most of the brokers who use us have our AOC certificate and insurance on file, direct customers get a copies with their written charter agreement. That certificate takes some getting, is very easy to lose, is expensive, has specifically named personnel as post holders, all of whom qualify for the positions they hold and are accountable in law. The pilots operate to an accepted Operations Manual, and their duty and training records are subject to both internal and external audit, along with SMS, mandatory maintenance contracts, and sometimes, at our expense we are audited by organisations such as Wyvern, who audit us on behalf of large corporations and key man insurers to ensure we are up to snuff.
Basically the same procedures and licensing processes as BA, Virgin, EasyJet, Tui, FlyBe and all the rest, but in a company a fraction of the size. I'm one of the post holders and sometimes when I'm drowning in paperwork, regulated to a high shine I see the "illegal" operators around and have to fight back a huge temptation to beat the pilots to death with the Ops Manual. What stops me is that a criminal record would make AOC employment a touch difficult, and I couldn't drop my standards to where those pilots are.
SND
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TRUTHSEEKER ... Thanks for that ... the only experience I have of crossing the Channel is many times from around Folkstone to Cap Griz Nez ...the old LAC (Light Aircraft Corridor) so long trips over the sea were never part of my flying ... though I did once fly almost directly from Ostend to Southend (EGMC) ... I was very young at the time and should never have done that in my opinion now. I believe in keeping sea crossings as short as possible and having the height to glide to land from mid channel for example. When I was in my early twenties I didn't really think about this much and used to cross the Channel at 3000 feet. This would only have given me around 8 or 9 miles of glide in a PA28 according to what I was told back then, though I have subsequently learned that this was probably a little optimistic? Possibly 6 or 7 miles with 2 on board and full tanks. (Tanks filled in order to get the customs drawback on the fuel.)
You mentioned in an earlier post that Casquets Island had been referred to in regard to the route taken by this plane. Overflying this island or thereabouts, would be on a direct flight path to Cardiff.
You mentioned in an earlier post that Casquets Island had been referred to in regard to the route taken by this plane. Overflying this island or thereabouts, would be on a direct flight path to Cardiff.
Last edited by keni010; 29th Jan 2019 at 22:14.
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Arkroyal,
I had close links to a Football Team that was an education in how not to do things..... they would spend millions of pounds on playing staff without a seconds thought, the managing director would walk around the stadium turning off lights in corridors & picking up errant paperclips to save a few quid off the running costs of the stadium.
They also would penny-pinch by getting members of staff to give bed & board to apprentice players that weren't local raised.
The team I refer to are of a higher calibre than Cardiff FC but they also used Private aircraft with whoever they could get to fly directors & players around.
Luckily they never came a cropper.
I had close links to a Football Team that was an education in how not to do things..... they would spend millions of pounds on playing staff without a seconds thought, the managing director would walk around the stadium turning off lights in corridors & picking up errant paperclips to save a few quid off the running costs of the stadium.
They also would penny-pinch by getting members of staff to give bed & board to apprentice players that weren't local raised.
The team I refer to are of a higher calibre than Cardiff FC but they also used Private aircraft with whoever they could get to fly directors & players around.
Luckily they never came a cropper.
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Runway30;
If you think footballs bad, pop around the racecourses sometime. The jockeys rarely fly, unless your name is Detorri or a couple of others you can’t afford it, but I watch plenty of owners and trainers paying for illegal flights. The recent incident at Haydock certainly wasn’t an AOC aircraft.
Worse perhaps, the Twin Comanche trying to get into Chalgrove, a CPL on his way to collect other CPL’s, no AOC, but he wasn’t flying in those conditions for the fun of it.
The CAA did a campaign about flights being legal some time ago, maybe a few “operators” or flight arrangers going to prison with some of their pilots might bring better publicity.
Harsh fines including the forfeiture of aircraft might also help. But the “Red Tape Challenge” has really made a murky area murkier, a lawyer mate reckons it has made a successful prosecution a difficult prospect.
SND
If you think footballs bad, pop around the racecourses sometime. The jockeys rarely fly, unless your name is Detorri or a couple of others you can’t afford it, but I watch plenty of owners and trainers paying for illegal flights. The recent incident at Haydock certainly wasn’t an AOC aircraft.
Worse perhaps, the Twin Comanche trying to get into Chalgrove, a CPL on his way to collect other CPL’s, no AOC, but he wasn’t flying in those conditions for the fun of it.
The CAA did a campaign about flights being legal some time ago, maybe a few “operators” or flight arrangers going to prison with some of their pilots might bring better publicity.
Harsh fines including the forfeiture of aircraft might also help. But the “Red Tape Challenge” has really made a murky area murkier, a lawyer mate reckons it has made a successful prosecution a difficult prospect.
SND
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If it's any consolation, at least one person is listening: that's my takeaway from all this. I feel informed enough now to make my own judgement call for myself, but I will certainly be recommending the requirement for an AOC to my client.
Meanwhile the silence here with regard to my repeated questions on CI flying practices I perceive to be widespread is deafening.
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See news article below for an interesting statement on the likely search area
Quote: "25 sq miles, north of the Hurd Deep."
https://gsy.bailiwickexpress.com/gsy...-start-sunday/
Quote: "25 sq miles, north of the Hurd Deep."
https://gsy.bailiwickexpress.com/gsy...-start-sunday/
I also flew many cross channel flights in PA28s & C150s in my early ppl days which with hindsight now i’d never do, especially after attending an RAF SAR lecture where I learnt the truth of SE ditching risks, very humbling. Respects to family , a very sad event.
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Plenty of pilots with commercial licenses and IR's doing dodgy charter, it's the AOC certificate the passengers need to see. While a commercial license (or ATPL) assures a certain level of knowledge and training the full legal protection is given by the AOC, and on an AOC flight if you aren't at least a CPL you're not sitting in the pilot's seat. I have no doubt the pilots of the Eclipse that flew Sala to Cardiff were commercially licensed, what I doubt is that it was an AOC flight, and therefore, probably as legally dubious as the PA46 flight.
I fly for an AOC, most of the brokers who use us have our AOC certificate and insurance on file, direct customers get a copies with their written charter agreement. That certificate takes some getting, is very easy to lose, is expensive, has specifically named personnel as post holders, all of whom qualify for the positions they hold and are accountable in law. The pilots operate to an accepted Operations Manual, and their duty and training records are subject to both internal and external audit, along with SMS, mandatory maintenance contracts, and sometimes, at our expense we are audited by organisations such as Wyvern, who audit us on behalf of large corporations and key man insurers to ensure we are up to snuff.
Basically the same procedures and licensing processes as BA, Virgin, EasyJet, Tui, FlyBe and all the rest, but in a company a fraction of the size. I'm one of the post holders and sometimes when I'm drowning in paperwork, regulated to a high shine I see the "illegal" operators around and have to fight back a huge temptation to beat the pilots to death with the Ops Manual. What stops me is that a criminal record would make AOC employment a touch difficult, and I couldn't drop my standards to where those pilots are.
SND
I fly for an AOC, most of the brokers who use us have our AOC certificate and insurance on file, direct customers get a copies with their written charter agreement. That certificate takes some getting, is very easy to lose, is expensive, has specifically named personnel as post holders, all of whom qualify for the positions they hold and are accountable in law. The pilots operate to an accepted Operations Manual, and their duty and training records are subject to both internal and external audit, along with SMS, mandatory maintenance contracts, and sometimes, at our expense we are audited by organisations such as Wyvern, who audit us on behalf of large corporations and key man insurers to ensure we are up to snuff.
Basically the same procedures and licensing processes as BA, Virgin, EasyJet, Tui, FlyBe and all the rest, but in a company a fraction of the size. I'm one of the post holders and sometimes when I'm drowning in paperwork, regulated to a high shine I see the "illegal" operators around and have to fight back a huge temptation to beat the pilots to death with the Ops Manual. What stops me is that a criminal record would make AOC employment a touch difficult, and I couldn't drop my standards to where those pilots are.
SND
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There are now rumours that Dave Ibbotson suffered from colour blindness, that in itself doesn't curtail him from flying but it would be a problem if he has failed the OCVT test & couldn't pass the OCVT during day or night hours, the restriction will read, “Not valid for night flying or by color signal control.”
So, now it looks like the pilot was flying at night with an aircraft incapable of being flown in icing conditions in less than VFR conditions, it has also been implied that money was 'promised' to cover expenses & that an hourly rate was agreed for pilot services. ( all supposition at this time ).
It would seem that the recovery search is focusing on a 25sq mile area where the last known position was, lets hope they find something, it would be an even better result if they find a liferaft floating around.