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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:51
  #501 (permalink)  
 
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The club should be looking at a huge loss even if insurance pays out, I can’t believe that is a certainty. I’ve just listened to an interview with the Chief Executive of Cardiff City and if I understand him correctly, they had liability for the money from the moment he signed. However they had no jurisdiction over his travel arrangements until the day he reported for training. A crazy situation to be in. If I was them, I would have insisted in wrapping the player in cotton wool. It looks like they will go after the aircraft owners, who don’t have a balance sheet that will give any great rewards, and the aircraft owners may also have a problem with insurance. The aircraft owners have finally made a statement but still not identifying themselves and still hiding behind the trustee company.

Last edited by runway30; 25th Jan 2019 at 22:17.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 22:10
  #502 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Slowclimb
Why is this scary? Are you (all) saying that PPL holders are unsafe to fly? Either they are or they aren't.
it is somewhat scary when a quick look at wingly for my local GA field has several pilots with identical reviews right down to the appalling english and spelling mistakes. One has managed 500 hours on the subject aeroplane out of a total of 360 😳

So full marks for cut and paste. Nul points for maths. As for the flying ability - neither I nor my kith and kin will be bothering to find out.

Whoever in authority thinks this is a good idea really needs to wake up.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 22:13
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Perhaps if this turns into the big scandal it deserves to it will have the beneficial effect of exposing the prevalance of grey charters and N reg schenanigans and hopefully also illustrate the insanity of swerves like Wingly. Maybe even the CAA will be shamed into some sort of action beyond indignant self-justifying bluster.

To trump Luc I looked up Winglys offering flights ex Cardiff and found one with 60 hrs TT and 3 on type, plus several offering Channel Islands trips.

This sort of madness needs to be stopped.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 22:28
  #504 (permalink)  
 
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Hi, The Old fat one,

I tried to do this by private message but TOFO hs chosen to reject them.

Hi,

I see no point in posting this correction in the busy thread.

your post #137 (for now)

https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html#post10368303
(permalink)

In the thread -


cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island-7.html

Contains a link that does not work.

The correct link is:-

Ditching and Sea Survival

It's just gone wrong somehow.

The best solution I think is for you to edit the post.

Thank you for your insights.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 22:31
  #505 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Luc Lion
Apologies.
I wasn't aware there were so many low hours pilots advertising their services on Wingly in UK.
Where I am based, this activity is nonexistent.
I looked for flight offers from a small UK aerodrome I am familiar with and found 9 pilots advertising flights.
None with more than 350 flight hours, 2 with less than 100 hours, 1 with 14 hours on type.
Scary.
Anyhow, this is unrelated to the accident.
Hi Luc, the public, certainly in the UK, won't buy anything unless it's on "special" - i.e. unless there is a deal. Just like the aviation experience market Wingly is offering GIFT VOUCHERS. Person A buys for Person B (say at XMAS) who then contacts the pilot - in particular, the person who receives the Gift Voucher knows absolutely nothing about PPLs, cost sharing, weather etc etc - flying clubs etc are getting toasted. Many AOCs are disappearing (fact from CAA).

In our area it's the helicopters which are stealing all the business. R22/R44 PPLs are taking people to posh hotels for lunch etc. It's getting a bit mad. I understand that certain airfields in the UK have banned Wingly and by Wingly we mean "cost sharing" charters.

PS it has everything to do with this accident
Rgds

Last edited by Good Business Sense; 25th Jan 2019 at 22:42.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 22:48
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Originally Posted by Luc Lion
I don't think so.
You are not flying a single piston engine aircraft in bad weather, at night, in winter, over open sea, without a serious flight preparation, unless you are a reckless pilot.
This airplane had the potential for flying on top of the weather.
eh? And this flight turned out fine due to meticulous planning did it? You’ve started to try deflect on a number of posts. Do you have some vested interest in this? The pilot certainly didn’t use its potential for flying ‘on top of the weather’ as you so put it.

Last edited by helimutt; 26th Jan 2019 at 08:08.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 23:08
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FRIDAY JANUARY 18

7:43pm - Jack McKay: "My dad has told me that you are going home tomorrow. He could organise a plane to take you direct to Nantes and to come back on Monday, at a time that suits you, so you can get to training on Tuesday."

7:51pm - Emiliano Sala: "Ah that is great. I was just in the middle of checking if there are some flights to get to Nantes tomorrow."

7:56pm - McKay: "He said he could organise a plane that would go direct to Nantes."

7:56pm - Sala: "How much will it cost?"

7:56pm - McKay: "Nothing. He said if you help me to score goals it's nothing."

7:59pm - Sala: "Hahaha with pleasure."

8:00pm: "We are going to score lots of goals."

8:01pm: "I want to leave tomorrow for Nantes at around 11am and come back on Monday night around 9pm to Cardiff if that is possible."

8:05pm - McKay: "Good. I'll send a message when that's sorted."

SUNDAY JANUARY 20

5:00pm - Jack McKay: "Hi there is it possible you could come back at seven in the evening on Monday night? Just because the pilot has to get home in the north after he gets to Cardiff."

5:01pm - Emiliano Sala: "Hi, Half past seven would be possible."

5:03pm - McKay: "Yes that's good."

5:05pm - Sala: [PICTURE OF LUGGAGE]: "Can you ask if I can bring this on the plane?"

5:06pm - McKay: "Good yeah."

5:07pm - Sala: "But is that going to be ok for the plane?"

McKay: "Yes there is space on the plane for your luggage."

5:12pm - Sala: "Ok."

MONDAY JANUARY 21

4:16pm - Jack McKay: "I'm going to call in a moment."

[Emiliano Sala voice message]

4.23pm - McKay: "He said that it is the same company."

4.27pm - Sala: "Ok thanks."
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 23:15
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In a statement, McKay said: "In regards to the booking of the flight, we contacted David Henderson who has flown us and many of our players all over Europe on countless occasions.

"We had no involvement in selecting a plane or a pilot and wish to make clear we do not own the plane that Emiliano flew on. As the text messages show: Emiliano was not asked for payment for the flight.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 23:29
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Doesn't really reveal anything new any of that lot to be fair, other than Emiliano Sala being able to command a great level of writing English considering he's from South America and played his football in France.

I haven't heard any full interviews with him in the British media so he may have a great standard of English, but he only spoke Portuguese on the released tape recording from the night. I might be looking at it too deeply and being too suspicious, but something doesn't seem right to me.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 23:29
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The Telegraph: "The pilot, Dave Ibbotson, held a private pilot's licence, according to US Federal Aviation Aviation Administration records. There is no public record of him having a commercial qualification. Ian Marshall, a friend of Mr Ibbotson’s who sat with him on the British Parachute Association council, told The Guardian: “Most of the pilots who have these private licences are semi-commercial. You’re not meant to fly for any financial reward but that’s not to say you can’t fly for reasonable expenses. That’s how many of them get around it."

And there it is in a nutshell. I doubt he had any idea of what goes into an EASA CPL, let alone an ATPL, but he was "semi-commercial." The reported 10 hour delay would have caused havoc with a commercial pilot's duty hours and may have resulted in a delay until next day (once you've reported you are officially on duty) But it's fine as he was "semi-commercial." We used to have the BCPL for parachute pilots, instructors etc, maybe it needs to come back. In our office today the attitude of the fixed wing ATPLs present was "he should have climbed, far safer." But that's commercial training, not semi-commercial.

Luc Lion; please justify a 285 hour ppl offering flights from Redhill to Humberside in a PA32 at sixty five pounds per seat (you have to book all 4 he has available) so two hundred and sixty quid to go one way to an airport with no great attractions near by, but our intrepid aviator has business there, so goes there a lot and flogs his spare seats.

Helimutt; You and I must know each other. If you see it going on please report it. The CAA (rotary) are bursting to get one, especially in a congested area. I know of two schools who have banned customers for doing Thames sightseeing flights in R44's after I called them about it. The well known website will not take rotary now due to insurance (they can't get any) but they're abundant on FaceBook and many other platforms.

SND
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 00:47
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Originally Posted by Luc Lion
If the pilot is FAA PPL (private pilot licence) with an FAA IR, it could still be legal (but on the edge) if the pilot is not paid and if the flight is organised by him and the footballers.

Some participation to the flight cost by the passengers is even possible in this configuration.
Not under US law it isn't. As a PPL holder you have to have a purpose for making that flight other than to give someone a ride from point A to point B. You as the pilot have to have your own reason for making that flight for it to be legal. If D. Ibottson did not have his own independent reason for flying from Nance to Cardiff that day, this flight was not legal. AND you have to pay your pro-rats share of the costs.

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Old 26th Jan 2019, 01:51
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This story gets murkier by the day.

I wonder if the passenger was aware of the pilots skills or lack of them.

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Old 26th Jan 2019, 02:44
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Wow, GA in the UK has changed immeasurably with "Globalisation" since I was last involved there 22 years ago.

So all I have to do now is pop over to Florida and buy a thrashed out "complex single" eg a 1984 Malibu, own it through some offshore company trust type setup, keep it on on N reg, get my FAA PPL while I'm there, make some connections in UK with "Fixer/Agent" types/wealthy circles , and I'm good to go, International "charters", sorry , I mean doing a mate a favour/cost sharing , including overwater, night , winter, single engine flights. I'll be quids in.

CAA have really dropped the ball.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 04:41
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Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia
If you see it going on please report it. The CAA (rotary) are bursting to get one, especially in a congested area. I know of two schools who have banned customers for doing Thames sightseeing flights in R44's after I called them about it. The well known website will not take rotary now due to insurance (they can't get any) but they're abundant on FaceBook and many other platforms.

SND
SND - If CAA rotary are bursting to get one then it really begs a number of questions. Ops inspectors may be bold in front of you during an audit, telling you how terrible all this is BUT they are less bold in front of their own back at Gatwick. If the practice was so awful why not make a strong case internally and get it stopped? Assuming the individuals have credibility at CAA is that not the natural extension of what he expresses to you during an audit? Next I don't really think they are looking very hard for flights that are advertised which suggest some breaking of the rules may take place. I say may because it would require someone in a car to go and look. Do nothing more sophisticated and look at a well known experience website, say Virgin, and find under the title of Flying Lessons.a 5 or 15 minute "buzz flight" some in multi seat aircraft where the participant would be sat in the back. Which begs the question just how on earth these have any relevance to a lesson or conducted by FI(H)? But don't ask me ask the CAA and how they are tackling.

All that said perhaps the evidence just isn't so compelling and recent history does not show dozens of buzz flights getting into trouble or cost sharing flights doomed. Perhaps sometimes people make poor decisions and if we look at the recent rotary fatalities ll were in very sophisticated aircraft flown by very experienced pilots including every rotary wing accident in congested areas within memory.

It isn't that I do not think you have a point, actually I think you do but the CAA are not exactly covering themselves in glory and that includes the way some are operating these sophisticated aircraft that only becomes apparent when it ends in a smoking hole. Resource, or lack of, has been the excuse of years and at some point you can't keep riding that horse.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 05:30
  #515 (permalink)  
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As ever in this murky tale, more questions than answers. Where’s the transcript from btw Rway 30?

It seems that the ‘ten hour delay’ is a complete red herring. Sala wanted to get back at 9 pm but agreed to 7:30 so the ‘pilot could get home’! Already smacks of a professional outfit doesn’t it? A night return was planned from the outset apparently. I wonder how big the pile of luggage was? How it was stowed?

As for ‘Emiliano was not asked to pay for the flight’. Are we supposed to accept that DH and DI do this out of the kindness of their hearts?

And I doubt Sala’s native language is Portuguese. He’s Argentinian not Brazilian.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 06:10
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Originally Posted by runway30
In a statement, McKay said: "In regards to the booking of the flight, we contacted David Henderson who has flown us and many of our players all over Europe on countless occasions.

"We had no involvement in selecting a plane or a pilot and wish to make clear we do not own the plane that Emiliano flew on. As the text messages show: Emiliano was not asked for payment for the flight.
Oh Dear,Looks like a bad case of BSE = Blame Somebody Else.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 06:38
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Somebody was paying. Seems unlikely this plane was being operated just so the pilots could build hours!
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 06:42
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I've been knocking round GA for over 20 years now and this 'Wingly' thing doesn't sit right with me. (I'm not making any assumptions about whether this incident falls under Wingly nor am I assuming that the pilot was anything less than qualified and competent).

I expect Wingly is legal but jumping into a light aircraft with someone I don't know and whose qualifications/experience I know nothing of isn't something I make a habit of. The closest I have come is a club flyout where I'm thinking at least this guy/gal is a club member and therefore a relatively 'known' quantity. I did once run through the 'what if I have to take control here' scenario in my mind though.

I have had 'bad vibes' since I first heard of Wingly. Just because something is legal doesnt always mean its a good idea to do it. The people 'promoting' Wingly at a recent aviation event I attended didn't do anything to alay my concerns.

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Old 26th Jan 2019, 06:47
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There are some pilots dropping paras for fun and free to get the hours, but I somehow am cautious to suspect such for the constellation reported. A 10 hours delay due to some mood swings sound plausible and possible, but who can confirm? A filed flight plan for the morning carrying DH name and cancelled or delayed to the evening would not surprise me.

The Wingly thingie is indeed something 'digital new', but good? I doubt. Even after EASA confirmed the hole in the bucket and some insurance issued covers (any case known to prove they also pay after getting the money?) it does not feel good. At our home field they altered policy and explicitly banned such flights. *altered* I just briefly entered Wingly, things like a 60TT/20 oT pilot in a Mooney M20 or night flying with a 70TT pilot both taking passengers make me shiver. These guys are still full of license euphoria and empty of airmen wisdom.

Last edited by ChickenHouse; 26th Jan 2019 at 07:17.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 07:35
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Watching, nothing more to contribute at the moment, but wanted to plus one this very succinct and accurate quote, which imho opinion goes well beyond this incident.

These guys are still full of license euphoria and empty of airmen wisdom.
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