Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
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Of all the possible scenarios, the one that this was a plane share arranged over the internet is the most unlikely. The possibilities range from this effectively being someone’s corporate flight department that would use the aircraft to expedite business transactions but made a very poor recruitment choice to this being an illegal charter operation with pilots recruited off the internet at the lowest possible cost. The investigation will identify where between those two points the truth lies.
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Spot on. as a non-pilot I would get in a non-airline plane assuming that the pilot was suitably qualified, and that the pilot also didn't want to die and thus wouldn't take unecessary risks either.
I bet Sala was simply a 'pawn' in this game - he'll have simply called his agent and said 'can you get me from Cardiff to Nantes and back on these dates' and his agent will have said 'no problem, just turn up at these points at these times with your passport and try not to be too hungover'. Any 'cost' may have come out of the agent's fees, or may have come from Sala direct, or a club expense account, I have no idea. Money may not have changed hands, it may have been favours such as an executive box or tickets for a game.
I bet Sala was simply a 'pawn' in this game - he'll have simply called his agent and said 'can you get me from Cardiff to Nantes and back on these dates' and his agent will have said 'no problem, just turn up at these points at these times with your passport and try not to be too hungover'. Any 'cost' may have come out of the agent's fees, or may have come from Sala direct, or a club expense account, I have no idea. Money may not have changed hands, it may have been favours such as an executive box or tickets for a game.
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So, if as highlighted in this thread David Ibbotson, Dave Henderson and possisbly another pilot regularly flew this private, N-Reg, single-piston engined aircraft for McKay to transport footballers from A to B, occassionaly IFR, in EU airspace, one can rationally assume that payment was involved between the parties for services rendered. There's no great 'footballer air transport service charity' anyone's aware of here. In multiple respects this is simply illegal. Which authorities though follow up with prosecutions/investigations and who takes the lead? The US FAA, the UK CAA, the French DGAC, the Channel Islands and/or UK Police, the French Police? Several interested insurance companies and or their legal representatives. Who takes the lead? How does responsibility rest between the actual/beneficial owner of the aircraft (not the owner trustee), the possible lessee/lessor relationship, the pilots, any middleman (quasi-broker) offering access to the aircraft, the guy that 'booked' it and paid for it?
Lots and lots of lessons will be learnt and a lot of that won't be new. But who is in charge?
Lots and lots of lessons will be learnt and a lot of that won't be new. But who is in charge?
Last edited by Romaro; 25th Jan 2019 at 12:48.
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Thermal IR typically detects around 10 micron wavelength, in the atmospheric absorption window, and shows up "hot" objects. There are other IR bands/wavelengths. E.g. near IR that is adjacent to visible wavelengths and might be part of what is detected by low light image intensifiers. So for practical purposes, I'd say you're right and it's a tautology. If you're taking a wider tech. view, not so much.
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...flew this private, N-Reg, single-piston engined aircraft for McKay to transport footballers from A to B, occassionaly IFR, in EU airspace, one can rationally assume that payment was involved between the parties for services rendered. (...) In multiple respects this is simply illegal.
Improper certification for an N-reg aicraft?
No AOC?
No CPL?
IFR as opposed to VFR?
Payment for services rendered?
EU airspace?
...?
It's understanding how this matrix fits together to constitute something dodgy that us poor trusting users need more clarity on.
Aside from "at night/bad weather/single-engine over water/poor cruise altitude decision" issues.
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Aggh, I thought I was just getting a handle on all this... which part of this is "simpy illegal"?
Improper certification for an N-reg aicraft?
No AOC?
No CPL?
IFR as opposed to VFR?
Payment for services rendered?
EU airspace?
...?
It's understanding how this matrix fits together to constitute something dodgy that us poor trusting users need more clarity on.
Aside from "at night/bad weather/single-engine over water/poor cruise altitude decision" issues.
Improper certification for an N-reg aicraft?
No AOC?
No CPL?
IFR as opposed to VFR?
Payment for services rendered?
EU airspace?
...?
It's understanding how this matrix fits together to constitute something dodgy that us poor trusting users need more clarity on.
Aside from "at night/bad weather/single-engine over water/poor cruise altitude decision" issues.
Of all the possible scenarios, the one that this was a plane share arranged over the internet is the most unlikely. The possibilities range from this effectively being someone’s corporate flight department that would use the aircraft to expedite business transactions but made a very poor recruitment choice to this being an illegal charter operation with pilots recruited off the internet at the lowest possible cost. The investigation will identify where between those two points the truth lies.
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https://assets.publishing.service.go...ATMT_10-17.pdf
Basically descent below MSA in IMC whilst not following a published approach procedure.
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Hello!
Many of the answers we don't know yet, therefore much is based on assumption (e.g. from watching others perform similar flights) and "half-information" from the internet and newspapers.
1. We don't know anything for sure about that.
2. Obviously not. Any type of commercial flying would therefore have been illegal. Even with an (American) AOC, a commercial flight between European countries carrying European passengers would have required a heap of paperwork ("cabotage").
And even with an AOC, this kind of aircraft (single engine piston) would only have been allowed to do flights under visual flight rules (VFR). And even a single engine turbine (SET) aircraft operating legally under an AOC and carrying passengers would have had to observe minimum distances from alternate enroute airfields (to enable an engine-out gliding landing) which at their intended cruising altitude of 5000ft over the sea would not have been met. (This is a Europen regulation for SET commercial operation.)
3. If he was paid in any way for his flying he would have needed a CPL. But we do not know if he received imuneration. If he flew out of courtesy for his buddy who himself borrowed the plane to his soccer player buddy for gas money only then he would not have needed a CPL.
4. On a private flight it would not have mattered as long as the pilot and the aircraft hold the necessary qualification. Commercially it would not have been possible to do this under IFR (see point 2).
5. We don't know yet. But any penny changing hands that exceeds cost sharing would have made the whole thing illegal.
6. EU airspace has nothing do do with it I think.
Regards
Max
Many of the answers we don't know yet, therefore much is based on assumption (e.g. from watching others perform similar flights) and "half-information" from the internet and newspapers.
2. Obviously not. Any type of commercial flying would therefore have been illegal. Even with an (American) AOC, a commercial flight between European countries carrying European passengers would have required a heap of paperwork ("cabotage").
And even with an AOC, this kind of aircraft (single engine piston) would only have been allowed to do flights under visual flight rules (VFR). And even a single engine turbine (SET) aircraft operating legally under an AOC and carrying passengers would have had to observe minimum distances from alternate enroute airfields (to enable an engine-out gliding landing) which at their intended cruising altitude of 5000ft over the sea would not have been met. (This is a Europen regulation for SET commercial operation.)
3. If he was paid in any way for his flying he would have needed a CPL. But we do not know if he received imuneration. If he flew out of courtesy for his buddy who himself borrowed the plane to his soccer player buddy for gas money only then he would not have needed a CPL.
4. On a private flight it would not have mattered as long as the pilot and the aircraft hold the necessary qualification. Commercially it would not have been possible to do this under IFR (see point 2).
5. We don't know yet. But any penny changing hands that exceeds cost sharing would have made the whole thing illegal.
6. EU airspace has nothing do do with it I think.
Regards
Max
This was the subject of an AAIB Field Investigation.
https://assets.publishing.service.go...ATMT_10-17.pdf
Basically descent below MSA in IMC whilst not following a published approach procedure.
https://assets.publishing.service.go...ATMT_10-17.pdf
Basically descent below MSA in IMC whilst not following a published approach procedure.
and how much is that exactly in real GBP or EUR? Lets be realistic. Lets assume you wanted to be super illegal and as a pilot charge what? 400GBP a day for your efforts? Do you think that it would be very difficult to hide 400GBP under the context of "costs" when we are talking about a PA46? The average club snot box PA28 can vary in 60 or 70 quid per hour up and down the country. So a PA46, over several hours and overnight hangarage at a non-home airfield etc etc etc. Its not even a challenge.
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yet on another day in another place the investigation didn't seem to care less why an aircraft was grubbing around in such obviously poor weather to collect another pilot to take him to another airfield to collect another aircraft. I'm sure when asked the other pilot, possibly a little more savvy simply suggested they were the firmest of mates and it was a favour, etc, etc, etc. BUT perhaps he was a mate and it was a favour and the payback was something other than money, maybe it was to enrich the soul? Yet put a premiership footballer in the mix and everyone is at it!
Of course I agree 100% so why do we suggest anything nefarious was afoot this week?
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and how much is that exactly in real GBP or EUR? Lets be realistic. Lets assume you wanted to be super illegal and as a pilot charge what? 400GBP a day for your efforts? Do you think that it would be very difficult to hide 400GBP under the context of "costs" when we are talking about a PA46? The average club snot box PA28 can vary in 60 or 70 quid per hour up and down the country. So a PA46, over several hours and overnight hangarage at a non-home airfield etc etc etc. Its not even a challenge.
In the accident investigation these issues are not really important. But - apart from the tragic loss of life - someone lost 15M currency units in this accident. Therefore they will drag anyone to court who offeres them even the remotest chance of recovering their financial loss. And if they suspect someone to have offered (or paid) a PPL holder money to conduct the flight than this someone better looks for a real good lawyer.
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Lots of suppositions and assumptions looking for someone to blame while the truth is most probably much more simple :
Try this : An agent that want to please and impress his client ( I can get you a private aircraft to get to Cardiff, forget commercial via or CDG or AMS ) , a young guy that is impressed by it , (and frankly would anyone refuse this ? ) A friend that know a friend that has a Malibu and can do this cheaply ( or even for free ) a Malibu ? for 99% of people a Malibu is a very sleek turbine private a/c , who had heard of a piston Malibu before ? The owner of the aircraft calling one of his friends always eager to fly , saying , Mr X ( who normally flies the plane ) cannot today you want to fly to Nantes and back with it to get someone important ? Who will say no ?
You arrive there , the weather is not to your liking but the kid and his agent are pushing to get there as he has first training with this new club and full media coverage the next morning . So he is pushed in a corner he does not like but not in a position to really say no .
During the flight something happens not planned that he did not encounter before , electric, icing , engine , whatever, everything gets aligned , and bingo!.
Really nothing much to do with N- registration or Commercial or EU legislation . Everyone of us could have been caught in this . and the more I think about it , me included . The only thing that differentiate us all in this situation is our power to say no. The rest is just bar discussions with Mr hindsight.
Try this : An agent that want to please and impress his client ( I can get you a private aircraft to get to Cardiff, forget commercial via or CDG or AMS ) , a young guy that is impressed by it , (and frankly would anyone refuse this ? ) A friend that know a friend that has a Malibu and can do this cheaply ( or even for free ) a Malibu ? for 99% of people a Malibu is a very sleek turbine private a/c , who had heard of a piston Malibu before ? The owner of the aircraft calling one of his friends always eager to fly , saying , Mr X ( who normally flies the plane ) cannot today you want to fly to Nantes and back with it to get someone important ? Who will say no ?
You arrive there , the weather is not to your liking but the kid and his agent are pushing to get there as he has first training with this new club and full media coverage the next morning . So he is pushed in a corner he does not like but not in a position to really say no .
During the flight something happens not planned that he did not encounter before , electric, icing , engine , whatever, everything gets aligned , and bingo!.
Really nothing much to do with N- registration or Commercial or EU legislation . Everyone of us could have been caught in this . and the more I think about it , me included . The only thing that differentiate us all in this situation is our power to say no. The rest is just bar discussions with Mr hindsight.
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This was the subject of an AAIB Field Investigation.
https://assets.publishing.service.go...ATMT_10-17.pdf
Basically descent below MSA in IMC whilst not following a published approach procedure.
https://assets.publishing.service.go...ATMT_10-17.pdf
Basically descent below MSA in IMC whilst not following a published approach procedure.
Reporting of the accident
A third party notified the AAIB of the accident in February 2012. The pilot did not consider that the damage to the aircraft constituted a reportable occurrence. Accidents and serious incidents that are reportable to the AAIB are defined in the Civil Aviation (Investigation of Air Accidents and Incidents) Regulations 1996, available on the AAIB website.
Carrying three paying passengers from the Channel Islands I understand, broke the wing spar and bent the wing such that it had to be replaced...... eventually this 'grey charter' business sadly seems to have caught up with him. There are quite a few pilots out there quietly chiseling a living out of aviation without the relevant skill set, supervision or qualification, every so often one of them comes unstuck.The AAIB reports can be more telling for what they don't directly say than what they do on occasion.
Enough said other than that there potentially appear to be multiple similarities in profile between the Malibu incident pilot and the pilot of the PA30.
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Nobody positions from say Gamston to Nantes, to go to Cardiff to then reposition back to Gamston for 'free'. Based on all indications so far, this was an illegal charter. Proving who paid what to whom for what is for the police, the lawyers and insurance companies inolved. It is horrendously messy.