Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
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What is definitely correct is that to fly an N-reg aircraft outside of the state that issued your licence you need to have a valid FAA licence for that operation.
So flying a US aircraft IFR in France without a French-issued EASA licence with an IR, or having an IR on your FAA licence, is not valid.
What I am amazed by is how few people know these regulations for a professional pilots forum...
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So were these flights safe?
I hope you'll indulge an SLF here after reading some of the above comments.
In early autumn last year I flew as one of three passengers on an N-registered SE Piper (not sure about exact model but I think had four rear seats facing each other) from Caen to Guernsey; daytime flight, calm sea state, excellent visibility. We were given life harnesses by the pilot and briefed, summarily, on their use.
I made the return trip that afternoon with a different pilot, one other passenger, no life jacket or briefing, in a G-registered Piper Cherokee. We departed early at the pilot's insistence because the fog was closing in as it does over there. In fact we ran to the plane and taxied out and took off in a big hurry; by the time we left the runway, the fog was rolling in at the end of the runway and probably not far off the ATC limit for us to take off. The rest of the flight conditions were as on the outward leg. After the flight with hindsight I was a little worried about this haste and can totally see the pressure pilots come under in these GA situations.
For both flights I have no knowledge of the arrangements other than that I am sure an invoice was issued; I was on business and trusted my client.
My questions are:
- was one of these flights safer from a regulatory point of view?
- was the level of risk of either or both of these flights acceptable for such an arrangement when carrying paying passengers?
Thanks for any answers.
In early autumn last year I flew as one of three passengers on an N-registered SE Piper (not sure about exact model but I think had four rear seats facing each other) from Caen to Guernsey; daytime flight, calm sea state, excellent visibility. We were given life harnesses by the pilot and briefed, summarily, on their use.
I made the return trip that afternoon with a different pilot, one other passenger, no life jacket or briefing, in a G-registered Piper Cherokee. We departed early at the pilot's insistence because the fog was closing in as it does over there. In fact we ran to the plane and taxied out and took off in a big hurry; by the time we left the runway, the fog was rolling in at the end of the runway and probably not far off the ATC limit for us to take off. The rest of the flight conditions were as on the outward leg. After the flight with hindsight I was a little worried about this haste and can totally see the pressure pilots come under in these GA situations.
For both flights I have no knowledge of the arrangements other than that I am sure an invoice was issued; I was on business and trusted my client.
My questions are:
- was one of these flights safer from a regulatory point of view?
- was the level of risk of either or both of these flights acceptable for such an arrangement when carrying paying passengers?
Thanks for any answers.
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Right, plenty of talk about weather this flight should have gone or not, and how qualified people where.
Is it me or is there a glaring beacon that this stinks to hell, what the hell is a professional premier league footballer earning 50k a week doing in this situation on a plane like this flown in the way, it makes no sense whatsoever, something is up here
Why did he not travel on a commercial flight? Or why not a proper bizjet company
Is it me or is there a glaring beacon that this stinks to hell, what the hell is a professional premier league footballer earning 50k a week doing in this situation on a plane like this flown in the way, it makes no sense whatsoever, something is up here
Why did he not travel on a commercial flight? Or why not a proper bizjet company
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FARS allows a foreign pilot to fly a US registered aircraft in the State that issues the pilots licence. There is no limitation of exercising any of the privileges held on that pilot's licence, including using an IMC rating. This was recently confirmed by the FAA's New York office in writing. It is of course not valid in another State.
US law is specific that an instrument qualification is required on a FAA licence for IFR. .
Furthermore the CAA specifically state that this IR (r) qualification is limited to UK registered aircraft in UK airspace. The IR(r) does not meet the requirements of ICAO recognition and therefore is limited to UK aircraft and UK airspace.
US law will always be paramount regarding operation of US aircraft and the only relevant US law regarding recognition of ICAO pilot licences is below.
§61.75 Private pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign pilot license. (a) General. A person who holds a foreign pilot license at the private pilot level or higher that was issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation may apply for and be issued a U.S. private pilot certificate with the appropriate ratings if the foreign pilot license meets the requirements of this section. (b) Certificate issued. A U.S. private pilot certificate issued under this section must specify the person’s foreign license number and country of issuance. A person who holds a foreign pilot license issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation may be issued a U.S. private pilot certificate based on the foreign pilot license without any further showing of proficiency, provided the applicant: (1) Meets the requirements of this section; (2) Holds a foreign pilot license, at the private pilot license level or higher, that does not contain a limitation stating that the applicant has not met all of the standards of ICAO for that license; (3) Does not hold a U.S. pilot certificate other than a U.S. student pilot certificate; (4) Holds a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a medical license issued by the country that issued the person’s foreign pilot license; and (5) Is able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant’s pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft. (c) Aircraft ratings issued. Aircraft ratings listed on a person’s foreign pilot license, in addition to any issued after testing under the provisions of this part, may be placed on that person’s U.S. pilot certificate for private pilot privileges only. (d) Instrument ratings issued. A person who holds an instrument rating on the foreign pilot license issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation may be issued an instrument rating on a U.S. pilot certificate provided: (1) The person’s foreign pilot license authorizes instrument privileges; (2) Within 24 months preceding the month in which the person applies for the instrument rating, the person passes the appropriate knowledge test; and (3) The person is able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant’s pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft. (e) Operating privileges and limitations. A person who receives a U.S. private pilot certificate that has been issued under the provisions of this section: (1) May act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft of the United States in accordance with the pilot privileges authorized by this part and the limitations placed on that U.S. pilot certificate; (2) Is limited to the privileges placed on the certificate by the Administrator; (3) Is subject to the limitations and restrictions on the person’s U.S. certificate and foreign pilot license when exercising the privileges of that U.S. pilot certificate in an aircraft of U.S. registry operating within or outside the United States; and (f) Limitation on licenses used as the basis for a U.S. certificate. A person may use only one foreign pilot license as a basis for the issuance of a U.S. pilot certificate. The foreign pilot license and medical certification used as a basis for issuing a U.S. pilot certificate under this section must be written in English or accompanied by an English transcription that has been signed by an official or representative of the foreign aviation authority that issued the foreign pilot license. (g) Limitation placed on a U.S. pilot certificate. A U.S. pilot certificate issued under this section can only be exercised when the pilot has the foreign pilot license, upon which the issuance of the U.S. pilot certificate was based, in the holder’s possession or readily accessible in the aircraft.
I trust this clarifies the requirements
Amazed by ignorance?
Having quietly read many discussions here it doesn't surprise me at all. Most people only know about the regulations that impact them directly. For example, in this thread it was asserted that only a US National can own a US registered aircraft. Simply not true. I'm not a US national and I have legally owned more than one US (N registered) aircraft. What is strange, but true, is that a US National and a non US national cannot be joint owners of an N registered aircraft. Ownership of US registered aircraft is actually restricted to "US Persons" a category that includes not only nationals but also those with resident alien status.
Is it me or is there a glaring beacon that this stinks to hell, what the hell is a professional premier league footballer earning 50k a week doing in this situation on a plane like this flown in the way, it makes no sense whatsoever, something is up here
That is very true clareprop. I probably know as much about football (next to nothing) as this chap knew about aviation,and what to us seems a mad decision for someone with his financial resources was probably something that never occurred to him. What is certain is that he was very badly advised.
Graham Hill springs to mind.
If the pilot is confident and reassuring (either through stupidity or get home-itis),
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There's no conspiracy. He was with his mates in Nantes. Offered a commercial flight back from Paris but decided to go back with the plane his agent booked for him. Unfortunately, he was between clubs so not really being managed or looked after. He (and probably his agent) had no idea about the sort of things we're talking about here. You tell Joe Public he's going on a private plane and he sees in his mind everything from a twin beech to a twin jet. If the pilot is confident and reassuring (either through stupidity or get home-itis), it's going to be a passenger with very acute clarity of thought who doesn't go along.
When I used to live and fly in the CIs many years ago I remember whispers of an insurance job ditching near Alderney, the Casquets location ensuring that the changes of finding any evidence pretty much nil due to the tides and currents. Legend had it that the pilot was collected and survived to do it again. CI secrecy is famous and this could all have been Aero Club wind-ups of course.
I used to fly to Alderney from Jersey and back every day in a single engine piston, clearance was always SVFR not above 1000, got caught by the 40 knot fogs a few times and had to divert to LFRC....is VFR at night allowed in French airspace now?
Why would the transponder cut out over water at 2300 unless there was a problem in flight, fire/structural failure? Would icing affect the antenna?
Anyhow can only imagine what must have been going through that footballer's mind in his last few minutes, it doesn't bear thinking about. RIP.
I used to fly to Alderney from Jersey and back every day in a single engine piston, clearance was always SVFR not above 1000, got caught by the 40 knot fogs a few times and had to divert to LFRC....is VFR at night allowed in French airspace now?
Why would the transponder cut out over water at 2300 unless there was a problem in flight, fire/structural failure? Would icing affect the antenna?
Anyhow can only imagine what must have been going through that footballer's mind in his last few minutes, it doesn't bear thinking about. RIP.
It isn't possible to be high enough to glide to land if the engine calves for the entire segment between Guernsey and the on track shore crossing point. I may be missing your point, but two things. We know he wasn't "planning" to fly at MSA because he filed for higher. That aside, what is wrong with crossing the channel at MSA when IFR, or 100 feet when VFR? It's 75 miles from Guernsey to the far shoreline. He couldn't maintain 5000 and had to request lower to 2000, so the only glide to shore places were at best max 10 northwest of Guernsey, and no more than 10 short of the intended shore crossing point. I have flown a bit from Biggin Hill VFR to the Channel Islands, and sometimes that was at 1000 due to weather. Mind you, it was in a 310.
The assumption is they are down near Guernsey, and that is a good assumption. The truth may be they are five miles from Cardiff or really anywhere between Guernsey and Cardiff, including in the Bristol Channel. Sure, 80% in the search area, but in all of these circumstances, buck shee chisel chartering, the questionable legality of the flight if an emergency had been declared and questions asked, it is possible that this was a guy ducking down to get home, but IFR and unable to ask for lower than the MSA.
It doesn't seem that the pilot was fully at the races with IFR.
The assumption is they are down near Guernsey, and that is a good assumption. The truth may be they are five miles from Cardiff or really anywhere between Guernsey and Cardiff, including in the Bristol Channel. Sure, 80% in the search area, but in all of these circumstances, buck shee chisel chartering, the questionable legality of the flight if an emergency had been declared and questions asked, it is possible that this was a guy ducking down to get home, but IFR and unable to ask for lower than the MSA.
It doesn't seem that the pilot was fully at the races with IFR.
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The report by The Sun, that the aircraft took three or four attempts to take off, are they suggesting three or four take off rolls, with a taxi back to the take off point, it is bizarre and makes me think back to the Munich disaster. I cant imagine a pilot attempting more than two take off runs, and that would be very rare and with good reason. Again a take off roll with a few hops again would be unlikely. As for any reasons behind such a departure such as being overweight, contaminated flying surfaces, engine malfunction or incorrect configuration, this could not happen to the worst pilot on his worst day, could it? Not least it might cause suspicion to ATC or recall back to the apron/stand.
An interesting suggestion that the aircraft may have pressed on to Cardiff, placing the crash site anywhere in the English Channel, Bristol Channel, Exmoor or Dartmoor. It would be interesting to know what exactly the radar traces reveal.
An interesting suggestion that the aircraft may have pressed on to Cardiff, placing the crash site anywhere in the English Channel, Bristol Channel, Exmoor or Dartmoor. It would be interesting to know what exactly the radar traces reveal.
Last edited by anchorhold; 24th Jan 2019 at 06:51.
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As to the "take off attempts": Big, cold, fuel-injected engine, difficulties in starting it, and the attempts to get it running were counted as "take off attempts"?
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Presume the Police are asking Mark McKay exactly from who and via what channel he booked the aircraft concerned – which he apparently admits to having done. In pretty much every conceivable manner this appears to be what the CAA call 'grey charter', illegal, in this instance, on a multitude of fronts. A wholly avoidable tragedy.
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After checking it would seem that indeed a Derogation on the EASA mandatory carriage of Mode S transponders do exist both in France and in the UK. So contrary to what I have said previously ,this aircraft could indeed had been carrying an old Mode A/C. My bad.
the EASA text is here :
On the FAA IR qualification, and not mentioned on the FAA licence data base , Well it would depend what kind of FAA licence he held. If he held a FAA Private pilot Foreign based ( like the one I have ) the licence is issued based on the national one , it carries the statement : " valid only when accompanied by (State) pilot licence , all limitations and restrictions on the (state) licence apply ."
I also do not think , based on his experience, would file an IFR flight plan not being qualified. But , OK , we know how people pushed by events are sometimes short-cutting the basics ..The ground collision in Linate comes to mind...
the EASA text is here :
Aircraft operating IFR/GAT in Europe are required to carry and operate Mode S Level 2s (i.e. with SI code capability) transponder(s) with Mode S Elementary Surveillance (ELS) capability. Aircraft compliance with this requirement shall be ensured by:
- 8 January 2015 for “new” aircraft, i.e. aircraft with an individual certificate of airworthiness first issued on or after 8 January 2015
- 7 December 2017 for aircraft with an individual certificate of airworthiness first issued before 8 January 2015
- 8 June 2016 for “new” aircraft, i.e. aircraft with an individual certificate of airworthiness first issued on or after 8 June 2016
- 7 June 2020 for aircraft with an individual certificate of airworthiness first issued before 8 June 2016
I also do not think , based on his experience, would file an IFR flight plan not being qualified. But , OK , we know how people pushed by events are sometimes short-cutting the basics ..The ground collision in Linate comes to mind...
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Looks like he didn’t have a valid instrument rating either. If you look on the FAA Airman database (anyone can search it) there are two David Ibbotsons and neither has an IR.
If he has an EASA IR, that’s irrelevant - he can’t fly N-reg in France IFR on a U.K. licence without it being on his American one. Yet he tells people on Facebook he’s doing ILSs.
If he has an EASA IR, that’s irrelevant - he can’t fly N-reg in France IFR on a U.K. licence without it being on his American one. Yet he tells people on Facebook he’s doing ILSs.
Frankly, I do a lot of ILS flying even on VFR flights. I usually call for practice ILS approach, nobody ever asked me on what kind of flight I am and practicing ILS to check instruments and skill is pretty common.
I was puzzled as well, but if you read the initial news it says "4 start attempts". Start attempts could well mean the pilot was unfamiliar with starting the IO-520 after it being still remembering the flight to Nantes. You have to be familiar with these engines to avoid the hot spider issue upon startup. But, if and only if the pilot had such trouble starting the IO-520 with the proper procedure, he most likely was not deep familiar with the aircraft all over - which would be a bad sign by itself. I will wait for the report to state how many hours on type and what licenses he had.
Last edited by ChickenHouse; 24th Jan 2019 at 09:35.
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Press reporting
The one thing we can surely all agree on (unless we happen to be journalists pretending to be pilots) is this amply demonstrates just how really sloppy reporting is.
In the early hours after with limited facts that might be forgiveable but almost every report several days on is peppered with things which self-evidently are wrong and would have taken a few seconds to correct from the obvious online sources.
This demonstrates that reports are not written by people either with knowledge or any desire to get them right. It’s consistent with a dinner I once had with a group of journalists, one of whom was from the FT, some from the Express (the former was my friend!) where I was amazed when I made the passing comment that in my job I need to be right when I say something and every story I have read where I know the facts even the basic details are wrong - instead of them saying “we know it’s embarrassing, people should try harder” they all vehemently brazenly defended it saying “you don’t understand you don’t have time to worry about facts we just have to write a story”.
So the telegraph today refers to it as a turbine. It refers to a social media post by the pilot saying I might be a bit rusty on the ILS “thought to refer to the plane’s instrument landing system”.
So when a paper as esteemed as the sun refers to three “take-off attempts” rather than speculating as to how it might have got briefly airborne then safely landed and taxied back in remaining runway, let’s just assume that’s pure twaddle - it might mean the pilot went off to empty his bladder or got out to recheck something prudently, or nothing at all.
People are instinctively keen to find guidance - at the pub on Tuesday after playing football my friends asked me for my opinion and I could have spouted any outlandish rubbish pet theory or said in hushed tones I’d heard it was deliberate but can’t say where and it would have been taken as authoritative and the more outlandish the more it would spread- I actually said at the time it seemed odd that what I had read (on here I think!) was the pilot was experienced at ferry crossings and it was an IFR flight plan so I thought it was surprising if he got suddenly disoriented and didn’t make a mayday call as notwithstanding the aviate navigate communicate rule if I were in a single there at night and had engine trouble I would be instantly making a mayday call as I pointed straight back at Alderney and hoped S&R got there before I froze and anyone who didn’t panic was likely to do similarly.
The UK is currently a much less United Kingdom and likely to be in a terrible mess for a long time to come as a result of people simply taking at face value people who seem authoritative by without checking their assertions and journalists with an agenda printing plain rubbish. Let’s always not forget when speculating about a disaster that absent independent verification even consistent press reports may be a complete fabrication as well as the possibility of “having something to them”, and them being completely accurate is sadly unlikely!
Having said all that the meta picture emerging by filtering the various reports is that the pilot may have been less experienced or qualified than optimal for the conditions and this may well have contributed both to the unexplained disappearance and failure to make a mayday call when getting into difficulties.
Of course another possibility is that a sudden electrical failure perhaps due to having all the lights, deicing equipment overloading an electrical system with an underlying fault and aged battery with underperforming alternator perhaps coupled to an unheralded engine failure happened without reasonable warning soon after a perfectly reasonable decision to descend to 2300 into clear air and a well executed glide to ditch was then performed in complete silence and darkness. No information that is currently available or likely to emerge or makes good reporting is around to support this, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t exactly what happened, pilot legality aside!
In the early hours after with limited facts that might be forgiveable but almost every report several days on is peppered with things which self-evidently are wrong and would have taken a few seconds to correct from the obvious online sources.
This demonstrates that reports are not written by people either with knowledge or any desire to get them right. It’s consistent with a dinner I once had with a group of journalists, one of whom was from the FT, some from the Express (the former was my friend!) where I was amazed when I made the passing comment that in my job I need to be right when I say something and every story I have read where I know the facts even the basic details are wrong - instead of them saying “we know it’s embarrassing, people should try harder” they all vehemently brazenly defended it saying “you don’t understand you don’t have time to worry about facts we just have to write a story”.
So the telegraph today refers to it as a turbine. It refers to a social media post by the pilot saying I might be a bit rusty on the ILS “thought to refer to the plane’s instrument landing system”.
So when a paper as esteemed as the sun refers to three “take-off attempts” rather than speculating as to how it might have got briefly airborne then safely landed and taxied back in remaining runway, let’s just assume that’s pure twaddle - it might mean the pilot went off to empty his bladder or got out to recheck something prudently, or nothing at all.
People are instinctively keen to find guidance - at the pub on Tuesday after playing football my friends asked me for my opinion and I could have spouted any outlandish rubbish pet theory or said in hushed tones I’d heard it was deliberate but can’t say where and it would have been taken as authoritative and the more outlandish the more it would spread- I actually said at the time it seemed odd that what I had read (on here I think!) was the pilot was experienced at ferry crossings and it was an IFR flight plan so I thought it was surprising if he got suddenly disoriented and didn’t make a mayday call as notwithstanding the aviate navigate communicate rule if I were in a single there at night and had engine trouble I would be instantly making a mayday call as I pointed straight back at Alderney and hoped S&R got there before I froze and anyone who didn’t panic was likely to do similarly.
The UK is currently a much less United Kingdom and likely to be in a terrible mess for a long time to come as a result of people simply taking at face value people who seem authoritative by without checking their assertions and journalists with an agenda printing plain rubbish. Let’s always not forget when speculating about a disaster that absent independent verification even consistent press reports may be a complete fabrication as well as the possibility of “having something to them”, and them being completely accurate is sadly unlikely!
Having said all that the meta picture emerging by filtering the various reports is that the pilot may have been less experienced or qualified than optimal for the conditions and this may well have contributed both to the unexplained disappearance and failure to make a mayday call when getting into difficulties.
Of course another possibility is that a sudden electrical failure perhaps due to having all the lights, deicing equipment overloading an electrical system with an underlying fault and aged battery with underperforming alternator perhaps coupled to an unheralded engine failure happened without reasonable warning soon after a perfectly reasonable decision to descend to 2300 into clear air and a well executed glide to ditch was then performed in complete silence and darkness. No information that is currently available or likely to emerge or makes good reporting is around to support this, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t exactly what happened, pilot legality aside!
One news article quoted above said something like, 'depending on which engine it had'. Do we know what engine was installed?