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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:17
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The known facts are bad enough: SE piston over the sea at night in engine and airframe icing conditions during the winter with a passenger on board. This alone tells me all I need to know about the pilot. He was an accident waiting to happen. We will know in due course the licence status and legality of the flight. Speculation is a waste of time. It doesn't make the decision to go any more reasonable. What is legal is not always wise - and that is not an argument for tighter regs, it is an argument for exercising good judgement. Clearly lacking in this flight.

Last edited by oggers; 23rd Jan 2019 at 18:31.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:21
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Sala's agent Mark McKay, son of Willie Mcay, also an agent:


Sala's agent, Mark McKay, made his first statement since the footballer went missing, saying that he wanted to "express my sadness and that of my families" over the "tragic events".

"I knew Emiliano well, he was a wonderful person and I count myself fortunate to have known him," he said.

Mr Mckay added that the plane was "not owned in any way or part by either myself or any member of my family".

He said he began looking into arranging a private flight to take him to Nantes after his medical and signing in Cardiff on Saturday, at the footballer's request.

The plane was meant to remain in Nantes until he was due to return to the Welsh city on Tuesday, he added.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:22
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Originally Posted by rr84c

...with no valid US CPL or IR
As someone else has already stated above, there are only two Dave Ibbotson's in the FAA Airman's Database, both are PPL's.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:24
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EESDL
BBC News reports that player - or his agent - arranged the flight himself.
this whole tragic event stinks
Well, let's be the professionals here and not jump to conclusions based on media reports - after all even Aunty Beeb is a media outlet - and these days - with journalistic integrity beginning to resemble the rest of them.

Let's go on the facts as they emerge and draw our conclusions in a manner respectful of AAIB process (as well as respective French and Argentinian counterparts) and the high standards of stewardship that this forum is well capable of and has excelled at in the past.

In a word - pause. There has been a tragedy with loss of life, circumstances that lead up to the accident are still unfolding. Nobody's officially broken the law yet. Situation on-going.

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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:30
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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Well, let's be the professionals here and not jump to conclusions based on media reports - after all even Aunty Beeb is a media outlet - and these days - with journalistic integrity beginning to resemble the rest of them.

Let's go on the facts as they emerge and draw our conclusions in a manner respectful of AAIB process (as well as respective French and Argentinian counterparts) and the high standards of stewardship that this forum is well capable of and has excelled at in the past.

In a word - pause. There has been a tragedy with loss of life, circumstances that lead up to the accident are still unfolding. Nobody's officially broken the law yet. Situation on-going.

Auxtank
Sorry but not on this occasion. Too many of us here have the experience to look at the basic facts on the aircraft and operator as reported and immediately see a senseless waste of life.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:32
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Now it does start to get murky. My questions would be
1) Who did Mark McKay approach for what now appears to be a charter?
2) Was the owner of the aircraft approached or a 3rd party who arranged aircraft and pilot?
3) Did the aircraft owner check the qualifications of the pilot before releasing the aircraft?
4) Did money change hands?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:33
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Am I alone in finding that details such as 'N'-registered aircraft being operated in UK and Europe with unsuspecting passengers on a PPL are bringing back unhappy memories of Graham Hill and his last flight?
AAIB Report on accident to Piper PA-23 N6645Y

Last edited by Strumble Head; 23rd Jan 2019 at 18:35. Reason: Additional qualification - 'with unsuspecting passengers'
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:39
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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He said he began looking into arranging a private flight to take him to Nantes after his medical and signing in Cardiff on Saturday, at the footballer's request.

Mr McKay added that the plane was "not owned in any way or part by either myself or any member of my family".
So that's all OK, then ...
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:40
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The finding of this aircraft/pilot for hire interests me. If you type simple search requests into Google, the results don’t lead you to this type of aircraft, and take you to the websites of widely known operators eg netjets. I’m in the UK and using a Uk biased search engine. To find similar aircraft to the incident subject aircraft and crew appears with an online search to be very difficult, I’ve not found one, and I’ve chartered aircraft (professionally) in the past.

NB the above is based on the assumption that a search for a commercial fee paying operation was made. The incident flight may not have been for hire or reward, as whilst charter has been mentioned, the organisation of the flight isn’t yet known AFAIK. None of my searches turned up a ‘man with a van’ type of offering either.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:42
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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Whatever the legalities, and who arranged what for whom, the outrage is clearly rapidly rising. A non-IR legally licensed private pilot decided to take a passenger (for reward or not) in a piston single during bad weather over very cold seas. Clearly the operator allowed te pilot to use the plane and the pilot decided to execute the flight. This is worse than bad
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:46
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed; "To many of us..." but some posting here appear to be doing so without the basics of citing anything other than media reporting without any advanced aviation knowledge behind them.
Was it ever thus.....

Just have to trust in moderators and put up with it...
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 18:50
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Originally Posted by clareprop
Was it ever thus.....

Just have to trust in moderators and put up with it...
Looks that way. Tragic all the same.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:06
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by G-MILF
As someone else has already stated above, there are only two Dave Ibbotson's in the FAA Airman's Database, both are PPL's.
Some facts regarding operation of a N registered aircraft.

Private operation is part 91

The pilot must have a FAA private pilot licence or higher. As an EU citizen he must also have an valid EASA licence as well as well as an FAA licence to operate in EU airspace.
The flight must be for no remuneration pilot and aircraft. However the aircraft may be leased for remuneration by the passenger or a third party from the lessor (owner) for free use of the passenger but note the UK department of transport (not the CAA) must approve the lessor of the aircraft to lease the aircraft when it is flown in EU airspace.
The regulations that apply are written by EASA and the FAA. The CAA only enforces them in UK airspace. In other EU States it is their responsibility to enforce EASA regulations.
Cost sharing does not apply and is not available as it is a N registered aircraft.
Any other type of operation is a public transport operation and would be contrary to both US and EU law in this case.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:17
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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I do like how you can check a pilot's credentials with the FAA - frankly a similar system in EASA land would at least allow passengers (or indeed flight schools etc) to do some of their own referencing.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:24
  #215 (permalink)  
 
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N264DB is reported as being owned by Willie McKay ( ex Doncaster Rovers Football Agent )
Mark McKay is the son of Willie McKay, Mark is the football agent who brokered the Emiliano Sala transfer deal.

Willie McKay has twin sons Paul and Jack who are Cardiff FC footballers, so I think there is a link between Willie McKay & Cardiff FC that some are trying to cover up?

It looks like that a link with 2 of his son's being fellow Cardiff FC footballers & his other son being the Football Agent for Sala puts a few pointers towards the whole deal was very much arranged within the McKay Stable.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:24
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vanHorck
Whatever the legalities, and who arranged what for whom, the outrage is clearly rapidly rising. A non-IR legally licensed private pilot decided to take a passenger (for reward or not) in a piston single during bad weather over very cold seas. Clearly the operator allowed te pilot to use the plane and the pilot decided to execute the flight. This is worse than bad
How do we know he wasn’t instrument rated?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:30
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Originally Posted by piperboy84
How do we know he wasn’t instrument rated?
There are only two David Ibbotsons in the FAA Airmen registry (which is public information), and neither has an Instrument Rating. One is a UK-based pilot. You can't legally fly a US-registered plane in France on a UK licence (even though both are EASA) - hence he's not properly licensed.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:34
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Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1
N264DB is reported as being owned by Willie McKay ( ex Doncaster Rovers Football Agent )
Mark McKay is the son of Willie McKay, Mark is the football agent who brokered the Emiliano Sala transfer deal.

Willie McKay has twin sons Paul and Jack who are Cardiff FC footballers, so I think there is a link between Willie McKay & Cardiff FC that some are trying to cover up?

It looks like that a link with 2 of his son's being fellow Cardiff FC footballers & his other son being the Football Agent for Sala puts a few pointers towards the whole deal was very much arranged within the McKay Stable.
Interesting connections which can be verified. But earlier Mark McKay stated that the plane was not owned by himself or any member of his family. Who is telling the truth - or is the family so rich one member doesn't know what another owns?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:39
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He’s right, a trust is the legal owner.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 19:41
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting connections which can be verified. But earlier Mark McKay stated that the plane was not owned by himself or any member of his family. Who is telling the truth - or is the family so rich one member doesn't know what another owns
As was mentioned earlier, it seems this was someone doing someone else a 'favour' with the non-aviating participants not having a clue about flying cross-country, internationally or in difficult weather. A perfect storm of ignorance, self-confidence and an aged aircraft.
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