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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 14th Aug 2019, 14:52
  #1941 (permalink)  
 
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If the illegal act wasn’t the cause of death then that gets him off the hook
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 15:15
  #1942 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Water pilot View Post
Alarms are not expensive at all, they should be required equipment. In my state (Washington) all bedrooms are required to have both smoke and CO alarms and many companies make combination alarms. They are available in AC, DC, or battery powered, some with 20 year batteries. Unfortunately I have not found any DC alarms that would announce "Carbon Monoxide alert" in English, yet another high pitched beep that you have to figure out is not as useful as I would like, but better than nothing.
In the UK, it's easy to buy a domestic battery-powered CO detector. I'm guessing those would work just fine in a cockpit.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 15:22
  #1943 (permalink)  
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Recently on Discovery? Here in UK

Ironically - Discovery ran this a couple of nights back

https://www.adn.com/aviation/article...sh/2016/03/16/

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 15:51
  #1944 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Jonzarno View Post


Another point is that CO poisoning is much less likely if the engine is being run lean of peak as that allows complete combustion of the fuel so that CO is not produced.
Please do not believe this, as it is NOT true. All internal combustion engines produce carbon monoxide. Indeed, all naked flames wil produce small amounts - it's an inescapable fact of combustion. The problem with carbon monoxide is that when breathed in it avidly attaches to haemoglobin as it appears just like oxygen to the haem moeity. Unfortunately, unlike oxygen which floats off readily, once attached the carbon monoxide is very difficult to remove, typically taking 4 hours in air to dissociate. Thus small concentrations in air gradually accumulate to much higher concentrations in the bloodstream. Once the carbon monoxide is there it prevents oxygen now being transported round the body and this will lead to headaches, nausea, vomiting, fitting and death.

I repeat. All internal combustion produces carbon monoxide which is lethal. Please do not suggest anything different.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 16:06
  #1945 (permalink)  
 
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Did the footballer not text something indicating that all seemed not well? if so could this have been the result of a partially incapacitated pilot?
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 16:14
  #1946 (permalink)  
 
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A shocking development. And one that would have remained unknown had one of the victims not been recovered.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 17:11
  #1947 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
If the illegal act wasn’t the cause of death then that gets him off the hook
An interesting alternative perspective. Inappropriate qualifications disregarded, due to tech malfunction? The Lawyers will enjoy playing that game.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 17:20
  #1948 (permalink)  
 
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Very nearly 100 pages of this thread and no-one saw that coming.

Goes to show; speculation is futile.

Go on the known facts for cause.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 18:45
  #1949 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by atakacs View Post

what other explanation do you have for that high carbon dioxide?
Three words; "In flight event".
I meant I wanted him to cite evidence that the aircraft wasn't maintained properly - as he stated.

Manifolds have blown in flight - leaking CO in to cockpit - not as a result of lack of maintenance, other events have occurred - in flight - to precipitate CO emissions in cockpit, etc.

It's a fool-hardy comment that feeds the bloody media that are watching this thread looking for any tit-bits to report. It's irresponsible, dis-respectful and downright un-professional.

Like I said earlier - let's go on the facts.
Advice, seemingly somewhat wasted on this thread.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 18:49
  #1950 (permalink)  
 
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Icing was considered earlier in this thread. Now that CO poisoning has emerged, it follows that a failure in the alternate air supply may have been involved. There was an AD in Feb 2009 on the alternate air control linkage. I cannot conceive any other circumstance other than alt air selection which in such a short period of time may have led to cabin air contamination so as to prevent action such as actuating the cabin dump, switch and pull the cabin pressurisation control out, turn on vent fan and turn off cabin air recirculation fan.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 18:57
  #1951 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post

Perfect storm, I would say. Under-qualified pilot affected by CO = doomed.
CO pooisioning may affect even the best quailifed pilot as its effects are insidious in onset.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 19:17
  #1952 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Auxtank View Post
Very nearly 100 pages of this thread and no-one saw that coming.

Goes to show; speculation is futile.

Go on the known facts for cause.
Not on this forum, but a friend of mine actually did suggest pilot incapacitation, very early on. He is very experienced on this type (and the jetprop version) and said it should have been capable of that flight, so something just didn't add up for him. Turns out he might have been right!!

ET
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 19:38
  #1953 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronus View Post
… so as to prevent action such as actuating the cabin dump, switch and pull the cabin pressurisation control out, turn on vent fan and turn off cabin air recirculation fan.
Do you think that a pilot with this amount of experience on type would be able to recognise the CO contamination and then perform all these as memory items ?
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 19:58
  #1954 (permalink)  
 
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"Well I'm happy to suggest that a properly-maintained aircraft is very unlikely to expose its pilot and passenger(s) to excessive carbon monoxide."
Agreed. But CO accidents are very infrequent.
What maintenance check detects a thin spot in an exhaust or a developing gasket fault?
I've had a few exhaust replacements and exhaust gasket leaks, but ALL were spotted AFTER the leakage had started, sometimes with detection in flight by engine noise or CO detector - spot black and detector (from B&Q) bleeping. Sometimes at check by soot stain.
But the leak was already there.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 20:12
  #1955 (permalink)  
 
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Well this changes things. For all his faults re licensing etc, it seems the pilot's last moments may have been spent heroically trying to put the aircraft down in a controlled fashion knowing he was about to loose consciousness.....although we'll never know for sure.

I wonder why this information has only been disclosed now. I presume the CO concentration in the passenger's bloodstream was discovered during toxicology testing from the post mortem....i.e. 6 months ago.

Surely this information would have warranted the wreckage being recovered for examination....but 6 months of saltwater immersion won't exactly make finding the fault in the aircraft easy now.

I have the greatest respect for the AAIB, but I do wonder if budgetary considerations are having a negative impact on some if their investigations these days. It is now clear that wreckage should have been recovered at the time.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 20:15
  #1956 (permalink)  
 
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I am currently doing the PPL, and very recently read in ground material about the possibility of fumes and/or CO entering the cockpit.

I had felt this was perhaps an exaggeration in the written material, after all, I can't ever recall ever seeing this before and was even further shocked to see this in the news today.

What do I need to do? I don't remember seeing carbon monoxide detector on the student required items for purchase list.....
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 20:21
  #1957 (permalink)  
 
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MPN11

The aircraft took off with an unqualified pilot in to IMC conditions flying a paying passenger ( someone paid ) there was no AoC in place. The flight was in a single engine piston over water at night and there was no legal way to make the flight under the rules of the state of registration....... and now we find out that it is very likely both the pilot and definitely passenger had enough CO inside them to incapacitate them at the very least.

Are you surprised that the maintenance is called into Question ? His whole sorry affaire seems to have left no rule unbroken from an operational point of view, perhaps its time to look at the maintenance as well.
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 20:22
  #1958 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by newfoundglory View Post
I am currently doing the PPL, and recently read in ground material about the possibility of fumes and/or CO entering the cockpit.

I had felt this was perhaps an exaggeration in the written material, after all, I can't ever recall ever seeing this before and was even further shocked to see this in the news today.

What do I need to do? I don't remember seeing carbon monoxide detector on the student required items for purchase list.....

Pooley's (as ever) is your friend when you're a rookie...and when you're a veteran.

https://www.pooleys.com/shop/categor...ide-detectors/

You know, a lot of this flying business...is down to you...your personal responsibility...

Given this Thread...that's a poignant comment...
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 20:24
  #1959 (permalink)  
 
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Two key aspects of this development no-one else seems to be commenting on:

1. Given Sala's body was recovered months ago, surely AAIB have know about this for a long time. If so, why only publish now?
2. Identification of wreckage and recovery of Sala's body was funded privately, not by AAIB, was it not? If so, and given significance of findings of toxicology tests, why did AAIB not arrange search? Of course, they were not to know this in advance, but they would know that identification of wreckage would increase the probability of identifying cause of accident, which is their role.

Taking these points together, were AAIB asleep on the job?

KP
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Old 14th Aug 2019, 20:24
  #1960 (permalink)  
 
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Auxtank may recall Emiliano Sala’s own voice message in which he said he was scared and that it seemed as if the plane was falling apart - and that was before take off
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