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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 8th Feb 2019, 23:52
  #1201 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clareprop View Post
Is it not time that this bolleaux is brought to an end.? Ridiculous comments regarding diving limits by people who obviously don't have a clue and similarly wild speculation on aviation matters. It's obvious that questions are going to be asked but at least have some respect and wait for the official conclusion.
A "BOLLEAUX" ? Whatever is meant by that, it is not what the majority of those who participate on PPRuNe. Most of us feel and deep sense of concern when a tragic incident occurs in aviation. Many of us wish to learn from it and try and do our best to avoid our human inadequecies, shortcomings and failings. We try to pool and share our knowledge and understanding in this field of human endeavour. Yes we do speculate, but even in that there is some value to others. There could be much error in what has been said, but at least we learn what is incorrect from those who know better. The whole world is shocked by this tragic loss. We as pilots once, pilots now and pilots in the future, are certainly most concerned over the impact it has and will have in the future and our role and interest in aviation. Those are not "bolleaux`s.

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Old 9th Feb 2019, 02:28
  #1202 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clareprop View Post
Is it not time that this bolleaux is brought to an end.? Ridiculous comments regarding diving limits by people who obviously don't have a clue and similarly wild speculation on aviation matters. It's obvious that questions are going to be asked but at least have some respect and wait for the official conclusion.
Clare, my apologies for not agreeing with you but there are two topics of interest to me now.

1) The investigation, not the diligent safety investigation being undertaken by the AAIB, but what I assumed would be a concurrent investigation undertaken by the police. An investigation must now be undertaken because there will be an inquest but it seems that justice would have been well served by a swift operation to secure evidence or do the police assume that there are only transgressions of the ANO and can wait until the AAIB have completed their work?
2) I am interested in how many pilots consider the value of passengers for 3rd party liability before agreeing to transport them. There are several football companies who are looking for recompense, as well as people associated with the person who actually booked the flight as well as the family of the passenger. The trustees from Southern Aircraft Consultancy will have protected themselves by way of an Operator Agreement with somebody and no doubt have already passed the name of that person/organisation to the FAA. If the Insurance Policy of the Operator is in any way insufficient, then the Operator/estate of the pilot could be on the wrong end of a multi million pound legal action. Could the estate of the pilot be protected if an actual/implied contract of employment exists with the Operator?
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 05:47
  #1203 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Maoraigh1 View Post
The biennial record which the CAA hold might be inaccurate. My paper record, in my licence folder, is complete, all revalidations by experience.
Enquiries to the CAA with respect to my English proficiency lead to the information that some years revalidations were not on record.
If I had crashed, and the licence was burned or lost at sea, their records would have shown I was neither legal nor current.
The examiner who signed my form that year would not be known to the CAA, and might not see the accident report, so wouldn't respond.
just to add you would be well advised to keep a record of logs, licences and revalidations etc in a secure place where your next of kin know about it so that they can give it to the insurance company. Otherwise the question of your legality is another excuse to use to delay or deny any claim.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 07:29
  #1204 (permalink)  
 
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Well the BBC must be reading this thread

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-47172509
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 08:16
  #1205 (permalink)  
 
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Ibbotson's family are now attempting to raise £3000,000 through crowdfunding to locate Ibbotson's body, it's not known how they intend to do this and what happens to the fund if he is washed up on a beech somewhere?

https://www.gofundme.com/f/david-ibb...bring-him-home

Last edited by anchorhold; 9th Feb 2019 at 09:20.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 08:35
  #1206 (permalink)  
 
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I tend to agree with clearprop. Rumour is one thing and PPRuNe has proved its worth on this subject many times. However, repeated speculation, incorrect 'facts' and distasteful comments about the deceased are unpleasant and don't do a service to many of the long term contributors on the site - imho.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 08:54
  #1207 (permalink)  
 
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Rumors is one thing, but PPRuNe carries 'Pilot' in its name. I see with concern a lot of most probably non-pilots contributing to discussions (or better, I strongly hope some questions are not from pilots), not to speak of the press obviously grabbing information from here (and not always converting it into something originally meant). How can we get on a broader educational scheme to better the information flow to 'ordinary pedestrians'?
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 08:58
  #1208 (permalink)  
 
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I tend to agree with clearprop
I don't.

There are some outstanding contributions on this thread, from posters who, like me, wish to see the biggest, brightest spotlight possible turned full on into the murky opaque world of GA aviation regulation...and kept there!

As for decorum, one can only hope all posters show respect and restraint, but anybody following this tragedy, with any knowledge and insight, are going to be scraping their eyebrows off the ceiling at some of stuff being revealed in the press and other sources.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 09:07
  #1209 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by The Old Fat One View Post
I don't.

There are some outstanding contributions on this thread, from posters who, like me, wish to see the biggest, brightest spotlight possible turned full on into the murky opaque world of GA aviation regulation...and kept there!

As for decorum, one can only hope all posters show respect and restraint, but anybody following this tragedy, with any knowledge and insight, are going to be scraping their eyebrows off the ceiling at some of stuff being revealed in the press and other sources.
Difficult. If regulations would be done by people with knowledge I would agree, but regulations are done by regulators and Europe does not have a good history of success in that area.

Yes, eyebrows rising and scraping is the reaction of almost every pilot on how stupid one can be.
But, these damn stupid things we saw surfacing the last weeks cannot be cured by regulations.
Being a gangster there is at least brainpower you can work with, but being stupid nothing helps.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 09:56
  #1210 (permalink)  
 
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The image of the wreckage is of the left hand side rear but it only amounts to less than half the length of the aircraft. Seems odd that there is no sign of the rest of the fuselage. Surely it cannot be far away ? Correction, the rest of the aircraft is there attached to the wreckage we see but it was not included in the rov image.... am I right this time?

Last edited by portmanteau; 9th Feb 2019 at 10:16. Reason: second thoughts....
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 10:04
  #1211 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by portmanteau View Post
The image of the wreckage is of the left hand side rear but it only amounts to less than half the length of the aircraft. Seems odd that there is no sign of the rest of the fuselage. Surely it cannot be far away ?
I have assumed that photo was selected to show the aircraft registration. There are undoubtedly many other images of a more 'technical' nature that would be of less interest to the general public.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 11:44
  #1212 (permalink)  
 
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I agree with ChickenHouse regulation generally makes flying more expensive. More expensive means less hours, less practice and more danger. Regulation is not always the answer. Enforcement of existing regulations MIGHT help but in the end, most pilots exercise good judgment most of the time hence the GA accident rate in the UK at least is impressively low. It seems that a series of bad judgments led to that aircraft/ pilot / passenger being in the air when conditions weren't conducive to a successful outcome for whatever reason. It's very sad but had this been a car accident, everyone would have moved on whether or not the driver was a professional.
Yes, this should have been conducted by a professional pilot in an aircraft operating under an AOC. But poor judgment kicked in and that can never be legislated for.
I don't see much murky or opaque about GA regulation and I think suggesting as much is very lazy indeed.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 12:14
  #1213 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ShropshirePilot View Post
It's very sad but had this been a car accident, everyone would have moved on whether or not the driver was a professional.
To wish the standards of road dangers on the aviation industry would be something of a backwards step in my opinion.

For example in UK -

In the year 2017/18 144 people died in workplace accidents.[1]

It is estimated that in 2012 1,000 people die in road accidents each year while at work.[2]

For reasons unknown we do not include road deaths as workplace deaths.

We demand that the workplace be as safe as practicable however we do not make such demands on the roads. I believe there have been pressures to include At Work road deaths as Work Related deaths which would mean that road deaths at work might be investigated by the HSE. This has been resisted by the voters since as alluded to by the @ShropshirePilot we are happy enough to accept road deaths as a cost of doing business.

[1] http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/pdf/fatalinjuries.pdf

[2] https://worksmart.org.uk/health-advi...e-killed-while
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 12:18
  #1214 (permalink)  
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More regulations are not going to prevent this as this was not operated as a commercial operation from the outset .
Some individual(s) decided to bend the rules, putting stronger rules in place would only penalize those of us following them .
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 13:23
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
More regulations are not going to prevent this as this was not operated as a commercial operation from the outset .
Some individual(s) decided to bend the rules, putting stronger rules in place would only penalize those of us following them .
Thus, clearly, what's needed is more enforcement, something the CAA has always been notably ineffective at. They regulate us honest properly licenced operators almost to death but despite the long-known problen of illegal commercial work going on nothing seems to be done about it, and certainly nothing proactive.
That needs to change - big time.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 13:24
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
More regulations are not going to prevent this as this was not operated as a commercial operation from the outset .
Some individual(s) decided to bend the rules, putting stronger rules in place would only penalize those of us following them .
Absolutely right. The real questions here are around the enforcement of regulation. Should the CAA (and DGAC) regulate with a heavier hand? More ramp checks along the lines of the FAA?

We might want to be careful what we wish for.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 13:37
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Originally Posted by jimjim1 View Post
To wish the standards of road dangers on the aviation industry would be something of a backwards step in my opinion.

I'm not suggesting that we adopt the same approach to aviation as to road safety - quite the opposite in fact - but the fact that globally every single GA crash is deemed newsworthy suggests to me that this activity, when carried out sensibly, is actually very safe indeed but that the general public (and my brother in law especially!!) think that he takes his life in his hands when flying GA. We are still all more likely to cop it on the way to the airfield!

Last edited by ShropshirePilot; 9th Feb 2019 at 13:39. Reason: shortening required!
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 15:55
  #1218 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jimjim1 View Post
To wish the standards of road dangers on the aviation industry would be something of a backwards step in my opinion.
Sadly you are ignoring the fact that compared to the number of people who travel on the roads and the number of fatalities when set against the much fewer people who do GA and their accident rate then you are indeed at a very much higher risk in GA.
I recall hearing a figure of 7 times a while back though I think that was in the field of leisure GA rather than commercial GA travel. Incidentally the most dangerous possible leisure activity you can do is horse riding.

It's the same erroneous perception made about how dangerous motorways and dual carriageways are. Yet due to the huge traffic flows on them their accident rate per vehicle mile traveled is very low. Near to me two single carriage A roads were identified in an Euro study of being of the most dangerous in the UK: they did not have much traffic on them yet manage to accumulate huge number of fatalities. Yet in the local news all we hear (after some gargantuan pile up) is how we desperately need updates to a major dual carriage A road in the area as it is so dangerous.......errr no it is not.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 16:57
  #1219 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
snip). A call for more regulations is the same way wrong as the call for more enforcement. We do have sufficient regulations and laws to deal with such issues.

We should not give our current self elected oppressors even more power.
We do not need more ramp checks, we already have the needed knowledge ourselves.
(Snip)

Anybody getting aware of those breaches of regulations simply has to call the police or other authorities to deal with it, immediately the moment it happens, not after damage is done. With enforcement we give our power out of our hands, we depersonalize our accountability and hand it over to somebody we don't know what they do with it in the end.
i can’t see what the issue is with more ramp checks, if the legislation is sufficient, then surely more ramp checks will enable that legislation to be enforced. Im Not sure what you mean by dealing with it ourselves, if you mean talking to a ‘grey operator’ what power do ‘you/we’ have to prevent the operation taking place? If current law isn’t being enforced by the authorities, any discussions with an operator are likely to be unproductive. If the regulators raise the profile with thorough ramp inspections, and subsequent enforcement/prosecutions for transgressions, surely that’s the way forward. I know some of our local UK police, their resources are already stretched to a microscopic thin blue line. They’re highly unlikely to be able to provide an adequate response and investigation to a call regarding a grey charter. The CAA have the legal instruments to really tackle this issue, but they need to take effective action.
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Old 9th Feb 2019, 17:37
  #1220 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronus View Post
A "BOLLEAUX" ? Whatever is meant by that, it is not what the majority of those who participate on PPRuNe. Most of us feel and deep sense of concern when a tragic incident occurs in aviation. Many of us wish to learn from it and try and do our best to avoid our human inadequecies, shortcomings and failings. We try to pool and share our knowledge and understanding in this field of human endeavour. Yes we do speculate, but even in that there is some value to others. There could be much error in what has been said, but at least we learn what is incorrect from those who know better. The whole world is shocked by this tragic loss. We as pilots once, pilots now and pilots in the future, are certainly most concerned over the impact it has and will have in the future and our role and interest in aviation. Those are not "bolleaux`s.
Well said - too many 'thought police' , and yet frequently comment themselves
It's in our DNA to question , learn and advance
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