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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 4th Feb 2019, 14:47
  #1061 (permalink)  
 
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I do hope the same amount of (publicly funded) effort goes into finding and recovering the next SEP that goes down in the channel.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 15:01
  #1062 (permalink)  
 
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^^

I am 100% confident that the official response to this loss would have entirely consistent with any previous "lost at sea" incident, given similar circumstances. Obviously search assets diminish as budgets diminish - indeed the Mighty Hunter that I spent many an hour searching for all manor of objects (including aircraft various) is of course no more, otherwise I have no doubt it would have been called on. Whether the P8 will be utilised for SAR I don't know...there are going to be far fewer of them.

Anyway, clearly the glare of publicity and the privately funded efforts have been far greater - understandably so...but I don't for one second think that the nations/governments assets have been used in any manner differently than they would have irrespective of who was on board.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 15:02
  #1063 (permalink)  
 
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.... or indeed MEP, on it’s way to Jersey for a sizeable splash of AVGAS.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 18:47
  #1064 (permalink)  
 
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According to the evening news AAIB will by tomorrow make a decision on recovery of wreckage. I would guess there may be parties who would wish its recovery and others who would not. AAIB`s interest lies solely in safety aspects to prevent re-occurrance. Other parties such as insurers of hull and persons on board may have direct financial interests in the cause(s) of the accident. Those involved in the procurement chain and process may have concerns for any contribution for liability . The families of the victims , besides the tragic loss of their loved ones, may have suffered serious financial loss. Their interest in the cause(s) of this accident is substantial. The CAA would be greatly concerned in their role as a supervisory authority. Particularly given the fact that they may come under the light of public scrutiny and critisizim for permitting so called cost-sharing by PPL holders outside AOC operations and failing to effectively monitor activities within such operations. There is very little doubt that this accident, now featuring the headlines, since the event has attracted public attention. It will not be too long before the Secretary of State for Transport picks up his phone and invites the head of the CAA for a brief chat.
My guess therefore is that it will be a long night for The Chief Inspector at AAIB tonight. What sort of a hole will a recovery op make in his budget and will somebody help to reduce its size.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 18:49
  #1065 (permalink)  
 
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Report is that the plane was found intact, which is surprising given what I think is the safe assumption that it hit the water pretty hard. Maybe it was a successful ditching after all? And they just sunk.

From the Beeb:

"They saw the registration number and the biggest surprise is that most of the plane is there - we were expecting to find a debris field," he added. (He being shipwreck hunter David Mearns).
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 18:52
  #1066 (permalink)  
 
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Weight on his mind

Not really sure how anyone could assess this flight to be anything other than 'commercial'. McKay was an agent in a significant commercial transaction where an asset under his control was purchased for £15m. Released emails from McKay to Sala affirm that his relationship was strictly professional- in fact he openly stated that there would be no personal relationship, in his words "just want to make money". As part of the commercial transaction, the asset had to be delivered to it's new facilities. His new employers offered a commercial flight. McKay arranged this alternative transportation. McKay has since said that he 'wished he'd told Sala he couldn't go that weekend'- therefore McKay has admitted to having sufficient control and authority over this asset. McKay had the responsibility of assuring the safe delivery of his asset. McKay did not choose an appropriate commercial operator- he instead selected a cheap alternative with no AOC.

The cheap alternative, working in a very casual and informal way then sub-contracted an even less adequate and less qualified individual. All of which is a bit smoke and mirrors. Dont try to pull the "he wasn't paid card". That's the way they've been trying to portray this since it happened. Dave Ibbotson was made to go out of his way to carry out this delivery. I've seen wingly being discussed as being marginal... but with wingly... generally the pilot is going to a specific location on a specific day anyway and is offering a lift for someone to help with fuel & landing costs etc. This is much different- Dave Ibbotson was sent to Nantes at short notice- significantly out of his way- to bring an asset back. Sala's delivery to Cardiff was due to, and a part of, the larger commercial transaction. Dave Henderson, if he has a trusted and longstanding arrangement with McKay will know that he would be fully compensated for his services- be it cash or other. Ibbotson I'm sure had the same expectation of payment for his services- whether the specific amount had been prior agreed or not. Even if he "owed a favour", it's still a commercial service, just as it would be if Ibbotson DJ'd for Henderson's wedding or serviced his boiler. Just because it may not be invoiced at arms length doesn't preclude it from being a commercial relationship. I'd say if the boiler leaked or caused an explosion or death, Ibbotson would have been brought to book and if at fault possibly prosecuted and lost his accreditation regardless of whether it was 'just a favour' or not.

In legal terms if I were Cardiff/Nantes- I'd be chasing McKay for the £15m. As far as the flight arrangements go, I'd say Henderson has a lot to answer for, in essence operating a commercial service without the appropriate licences and all the checks and balances that go with being a fully certified Air Operator. Again, this young lad was the asset, worth about 5 times the value of the plane when brand new. The only reason for his journey was for commercial purposes. There was no personal connection.

In terms of investigation, I'd imagine it crucial to recover the aircraft and as much evidence as they can find. Ibbotson's phone would be invaluable for the investigations. For example to see text messages and phone calls with Henderson and others during arrangements and on the day itself. Possible attempts to contact during the flight? At under 5,000 ft, signal would be available. We also know the unfortunate situation in which he was placed, he would have been very reluctant to relay problems to ATC fearing it may open up a can of worms, but did he attempt to contact others via his phone when in the air? Phone may also give info from skydemon or other apps.

Also, in terms of investigation, surely one of their initial tests would be the PIC's toxicology? Or even a post mortem to check if there was a sudden medical emergency that incapacitated the PIC? I would suggest that the AAIB investigation team would be very keen to recover the wreckage.

Another factor that I'm not sure has been mentioned, but would anyone think weight and CG might be an issue here? I've read that there were three failed take-off attempts but haven't seen any verification. Remember Sala was moving home, left his dog in kennels, how much did he bring with him for his move- was it everything and the kitchen sink? Significant weight, CG too far aft, with probable icing in IMC at night under the control of a PIC whose PPL stated that he was restricted to only VFR during the day?
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 18:53
  #1067 (permalink)  
 
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So far the media have done ...
Football tragedy
Missing 'plane
'Plane found

Not a whisper yet [apart from here] about 'appropriate operation/licensing'. Is that [hopefully] being done quietly by AAIB?
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 19:42
  #1068 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mryan75 View Post
Report is that the plane was found intact, which is surprising given what I think is the safe assumption that it hit the water pretty hard. Maybe it was a successful ditching after all? And they just sunk.

From the Beeb:

"They saw the registration number and the biggest surprise is that most of the plane is there - we were expecting to find a debris field," he added. (He being shipwreck hunter David Mearns).

And for God's sake, why are so many non-pilots allowed to post such gibberish on here? Unless I got the PP part of PPRuNe wrong.
how do you describe one body inside the aircraft as “successful”?
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 20:43
  #1069 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mryan75 View Post
Report is that the plane was found intact, which is surprising given what I think is the safe assumption that it hit the water pretty hard. Maybe it was a successful ditching after all? And they just sunk.

From the Beeb:

"They saw the registration number and the biggest surprise is that most of the plane is there - we were expecting to find a debris field," he added. (He being shipwreck hunter David Mearns).
They haven't said that the aeroplane is intact, but that most of it appears to be in one place. Wouldn't that suggest that it may have entered the water pretty much vertically which might be consistent with it stalling due to build-up of ice, as has been suggested earlier in this thread?
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 20:52
  #1070 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Gwyn_ap_Nudd View Post
They haven't said that the aeroplane is intact, but that most of it appears to be in one place. Wouldn't that suggest that it may have entered the water pretty much vertically which might be consistent with it stalling due to build-up of ice, as has been suggested earlier in this thread?
It appears that the only door is open.

Originally Posted by S-Works View Post
And the tail appears to be nearly torn off...... Your point?
His point is that the aircraft door is open. It's a pressurized aircraft and it takes some force to open that door. Unless someone inside opened it.

What is your point?
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 21:23
  #1071 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cncpc View Post
It appears that the only door is open.



His point is that the aircraft door is open. It's a pressurized aircraft and it takes some force to open that door. Unless someone inside opened it.

What is your point?
Looking at the underwater photograph, the aft fuselage appears to have suffered pretty substantial damage so perhaps it was pressure of the water, maybe at the time of impact, that forced the door open?
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 21:23
  #1072 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cncpc View Post
It appears that the only door is open.

It's a pressurized aircraft and it takes some force to open that door.
I would suggest that smashing into the sea would constitute "some force" in this context. You will also note the extensive buckling of the fuselage - if the crash could do that, then it is more than likely it deformed or ruptured the fuselage around the door sufficient to open it, or make it appear open.

FBW

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Old 4th Feb 2019, 21:55
  #1073 (permalink)  
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Why no MAYDAY?
Even a single pilot would have had a hand free for a call?
Things were obviously not 'OK'.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 21:58
  #1074 (permalink)  
 
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I would think that the aircraft would be recovered,otherwise it`s position would become an `attraction` for divers of a certain disposition.....
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 22:01
  #1075 (permalink)  
 
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Would lifting the fuselage add much to the cost, having already chartered Geo Ocean III?
Finding all the small bits would probably be expensive.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 22:46
  #1076 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by positiverate20 View Post
I've seen wingly being discussed as being marginal... but with wingly... generally the pilot is going to a specific location on a specific day anyway and is offering a lift for someone to help with fuel & landing costs etc.
....... unfortunately, most are not going there anyway - most are offering any day, any time, any destination, overnights etc etc - "just ask" - to me that's a commercial charter but the UK CAA and EASA don't agree - after the first Wingly crash the courts will decide.

Last edited by Good Business Sense; 5th Feb 2019 at 07:17.
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Old 4th Feb 2019, 23:16
  #1077 (permalink)  
 
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What the photo shows doesn't resemble the outcome of a successful ditching.

Loss of control from disorientation or icing seem more likely.
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 06:03
  #1078 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying View Post
What the photo shows doesn't resemble the outcome of a successful ditching.

Loss of control from disorientation or icing seem more likely.
Tend to agree, but on the other hand making a" successful" ditching at night is not something easy to achieve ( judging height ) so it could still have been an attempt to ditch that turned bad .le.g. hitting tail first , or flipping over.
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 06:09
  #1079 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by G-CPTN View Post
Why no MAYDAY?
Even a single pilot would have had a hand free for a call?
Things were obviously not 'OK'.
When you find yourself suddenly in the sh*t at 2000ft , communicate is not the first thing that comes to your mind, and would have not helped them much either in this case , switching on manually the ELT would have...
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Old 5th Feb 2019, 06:48
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Is there not a legal requirement for an inquest in these circumstances? If so, presumably the Coroner would determine whether the bodies are required for a PM.
On the contrast, by international regulations of the sea the scene of an accident on the oceans is a grave. If you want to recover the bodies, it is an exhumation. Somebody authorized has to demand for it, this why the question to the relatives, and in this case has to be authorized by the country on which territory the accident scene is. There are quite some countries where this is impossible and an offense against the deceased by national laws. Anybody here firm in French funeral law?
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