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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 2nd Feb 2019, 12:13
  #941 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
deleted






First I don't think it is appropriate in times of GDPR to publish personal data like telephone numbers in public - i deleted the pic in reply - even and especially in such case!

If this really is the plan filed, there are a lot of questions. Wrong call sign? maybe even the G should have been N ;-)? 2 aircraft on the FPL? no POB? equipment list bogus? speed 113 knots? ok overlook the known odd behavior of Skydemon on filing ... why the hack should one use such odd border crossing point with two official one so close? I hope this is a fake as so far from a professional one, not even to PPL standards. Would France even accept such FPL, or would they not immediately call the pilot filing? My first impression, looks like 'alternate facts', hard to imagine somebody filing this way in reality, sorry.

Last edited by ChickenHouse; 2nd Feb 2019 at 12:30.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 12:31
  #942 (permalink)  
 
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I guess a couple of million in transfer fees was going to be timely?
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 12:35
  #943 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
why the hack should one use such odd border crossing point with two official one so close?
I have no idea whether the plan shown is Fake News or not. On the simple Skydemon question though, SD, like many planning tools computes the point of FIR crossing automatically if the pilot has merely straddled the FIR with a DCT between two points. It does this as a convenience because an EET and and identified crossing point on the FIR is a FPL requirement. One that many ignore.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 12:45
  #944 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 2Donkeys View Post
I have no idea whether the plan shown is Fake News or not. On the simple Skydemon question though, SD, like many planning tools computes the point of FIR crossing automatically if the pilot has merely straddled the FIR with a DCT between two points. It does this as a convenience because an EET and and identified crossing point on the FIR is a FPL requirement. One that many ignore.
Just gave it a try, SD does compute the border crossing time, but it appears to not generate a waypoint at the border in the FPL route. The DCT point in the shown route is also not on the straight line between the two airports and it is not on the border crossing also.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 12:46
  #945 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
First I don't think it is appropriate in times of GDPR to publish personal data like telephone numbers in public - i deleted the pic in reply - even and especially in such case!
His full address, mobile phone number and email contact are anyway publicly available via the UK's Gas Safe Register as he was according to the register approved to carry out repairs to Natural Gas and also LPG installations both commercial and domestic in the UK: (I've just checked and the phone number matches)
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 12:53
  #946 (permalink)  
 
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And its not like it matters now.....
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 12:59
  #947 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
Well this is very interesting because all the press were saying the Daytime flightplan had the name Dave Henderson as PILOT where that actually clearly shows the name David Ibbotson as PILOT.

Well this is very interesting because all the press were saying the Daytime flightplan had the FLIGHTPLAN filed as IFR where that actually clearly shows it was filed as VFR.

The mistake of the callsign is an easy mistake to make ( had this done to me by electronic inputting myself ) so I wouldn't think that is too big an issue?

The NO113 is a bit of a strange one to have put as a TAS? the distance from LFRS to the FIR Boundary (EGTT) is 170nm which @ 113kts would have been 90mins so the 99mins on the FPL is close to correct for the speed filed.
I am just assuming because it was a Skydemon FPL that either the 'aircraft profile' didn't have correct speeds or we have just spotted a glitch in the Skydemon system where it files times based on estimated groundspeed? ( supposition only ).

It is now looking like Dave Ibbotson really did think he was operating a daytime flight both ways, though it also seems apparent that the actual organisers knew that the return flight was scheduled for after sunset from the outset. It now changes the whole perception I have of what was asked of Dave Ibbotson & what was changed once he got to Nantes.
Sadly, Dave Ibbotson won't be able to defend,deny or enlighten the interested parties in what questions are now being asked.

Now it is such a maelstrom of facts & bs that the only conclusive outcome will be based on the official reports. I hope in some way that the focus isn't all aimed at Dave Ibbotson or his family members, I am sure 'smoke & mirrors' will be used to cover up a lot of stuff that went on in the vain hope of not dragging others down, so all the focus on Dave Ibbotson having £18k of CCJ's seems like a diversionary tactic by someone who owes a far more significant amount that the HMRC have their gnashers biting away at.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 14:20
  #948 (permalink)  
 
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Truthseeker #936

Spot on chum; my thoughts exactly
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 14:44
  #949 (permalink)  
 
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I feel desperately sorry for the family of Dave Ibbotson who must have had no idea that he was putting himself into such danger. Because everybody is trying to pass the blame to someone else, we are probably seeing things that we shouldn’t. We know from the emails released that it was always planned to be a night flight so somebody has got Dave Ibbotson there by telling him or letting him believe that it was a daytime flight, knowing all along that it would be a nightime flight that he did not have the skills to undertake. It was so dangerous and so reckless. Yes, Dave Ibbotson should have said no but he probably spent the day wondering how to get out of it and I wonder if the reported RTOs were Dave Ibbotson knowing that he really wasn’t equipped to do it. If he had have survived as far as Cardiff, what were his chances if it was his first time ILS at night? In that weather?

Last edited by runway30; 2nd Feb 2019 at 14:47. Reason: Spelling
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 15:01
  #950 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
I feel desperately sorry for the family of Dave Ibbotson who must have had no idea that he was putting himself into such danger. Because everybody is trying to pass the blame to someone else, we are probably seeing things that we shouldn’t. We know from the emails released that it was always planned to be a night flight so somebody has got Dave Ibbotson there by telling him or letting him believe that it was a daytime flight, knowing all along that it would be a nightime flight that he did not have the skills to undertake. It was so dangerous and so reckless. Yes, Dave Ibbotson should have said no but he probably spent the day wondering how to get out of it and I wonder if the reported RTOs were Dave Ibbotson knowing that he really wasn’t equipped to do it. If he had have survived as far as Cardiff, what were his chances if it was his first time ILS at night? In that weather?

Likewise I very feel sorry him and his family, I also believe there must have been many other external pressures put on David for him to knowingly set off on a flight he was clearly not qualified in so many ways to undertake.

Those pressures most likely came from the football club brokers who organised the flight, his so called friend who asked him to do the flight, financial pressure from various sources, the whole thing sinks to high heaven and I do hope the people involved with arranging this flight are found guilty and jailed along with their assets taken off them and sold.

Although sadly the buck does stop with the pilot in command to say no I cannot do it today.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 15:24
  #951 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
Just gave it a try, SD does compute the border crossing time, but it appears to not generate a waypoint at the border in the FPL route. The DCT point in the shown route is also not on the straight line between the two airports and it is not on the border crossing also.
Just tried the SD system in exactly the way you say & it came up with this, I always move the magenta line to the FIR to temporarily create a waypoint into the plog but didn't do this the second time to see what SD does.... that is ingenious that SD actually do the calc if you forget to



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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 15:59
  #952 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting, mine does not do that automatically. What exactly did you do to generate that result?
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 16:18
  #953 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Above The Clouds View Post
Likewise I very feel sorry him and his family, I also believe there must have been many other external pressures put on David for him to knowingly set off on a flight he was clearly not qualified in so many ways to undertake.

Those pressures most likely came from the football club brokers who organised the flight, his so called friend who asked him to do the flight, financial pressure from various sources, the whole thing sinks to high heaven and I do hope the people involved with arranging this flight are found guilty and jailed along with their assets taken off them and sold.

Although sadly the buck does stop with the pilot in command to say no I cannot do it today.
I suspect quite a few of us have made rash decisions when it comes to our flying ( I know I have ! ) so I don't think Dave Ibbotson is the first person who got it totally wrong by being influenced by peer pressure ( put it this way, if Dave Ibbotson had successfully got Emiliano Sala to Cardiff he would have been the 'Hero' but because it has gone totally badly he is now being tarred by the 'Zero' brush ).

I can't even justifiably say I blame him for trying to make the flight, he was possibly under immense pressure to keep the 'wolf from the door' & this if conducted in daylight should have been an easy trip for him in VFR conditions, but when the goalposts are moved slightly it adds a bit more pressure on the pilot, I am thinking the goalposts weren't moved slightly but moved by a golden mile so the pressure would have been immense on Dave Ibbotson. If he genuinely thought he was flying back during daylight hours ( which I suspect he did, otherwise why file an 0900 flightplan? ) it is probably likely that the facts that a 1930 departure was already agreed weren't relayed to Dave Ibbotson until after he filed a 0900 FLIGHTPLAN.

Taking that he was asked if he fancied a ' Weekend in Nantes ' I would take that as fly out Saturday & return Sunday or early Monday at the latest. ( Monday hasn't ever been part of my weekend, but I have had a weekend away where I flew back first thing Monday ).

I am also hoping that the focus is on the right people when it gets to that stage, there are going to be quite a few names in the frame & I too would like them to be held responsible for their part in the Sala flight arrangements.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 16:36
  #954 (permalink)  
 
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Much has been said about the legality or otherwise of cost sharing , the Wingly business potentially eroding safety margins for unsuspecting customers and all discussions relate to the carriage of Human passengers.
is there a potential for similar pseudo commercial flights being made between the Channel Islands and the UK ( and vice versa) for the carriage of animals?
The Jersey Aero club Facebook page now carries an advertisement posted on January 27 th asking for someone “ to pick up a puppy at Lydd on February 16 th” and presumably to fly it to Jersey.
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 16:43
  #955 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
Just gave it a try, SD does compute the border crossing time, but it appears to not generate a waypoint at the border in the FPL route. The DCT point in the shown route is also not on the straight line between the two airports and it is not on the border crossing also.
If you put that waypoint in using the Nddmmss Wdddmmss format it puts it 3.5nm to the east side of the DCT line but it is pretty much on the FIR Boundary line albeit 0.4nm off.

Are you using Nddmmss Wdddmmss or a different format ?
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 16:44
  #956 (permalink)  
 
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Above The Clouds
Likewise I very feel sorry him and his family, I also believe there must have been many other external pressures put on David for him to knowingly set off on a flight he was clearly not qualified in so many ways to undertake.

Those pressures most likely came from the football club brokers who organised the flight, his so called friend who asked him to do the flight, financial pressure from various sources, the whole thing sinks to high heaven and I do hope the people involved with arranging this flight are found guilty and jailed along with their assets taken off them and sold.

Although sadly the buck does stop with the pilot in command to say no I cannot do it today.
Truthseeker
I suspect quite a few of us have made rash decisions when it comes to our flying ( I know I have ! ) so I don't think Dave Ibbotson is the first person who got it totally wrong by being influenced by peer pressure ( put it this way, if Dave Ibbotson had successfully got Emiliano Sala to Cardiff he would have been the 'Hero' but because it has gone totally badly he is now being tarred by the 'Zero' brush ).
Were have I tarred him with a zero brush ?
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 18:33
  #957 (permalink)  
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Thanks runway 30 for this info . This is a screenshot from the French RFSTA flight plan database, showing the basic info and nor all the fields.filed . Once thing : No guarantee this is the actual flight plan used , unless it was delayed many times ( this particular PLN would have expired at 0930. )
Possibly a different PLN was filed for a dep at 19:00 or so, and this one could have been IFR , this could explain the rumors heard of 2 PLN s. . but just speculating.
Anyway it shows the pilot filed that the aircraft was mode S equipped, which is what I was after. If it was on the BEA would knows pretty much where the aircraft is .
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 19:20
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Originally Posted by Above The Clouds View Post
Were have I tarred him with a zero brush ?
I didn't say you had......... it was a generalisation that if he had got Sala to Cardiff everyone would have saying what a great guy Dave Ibbotson was......because he failed to get him there, they are all slagging him off.

The people who should be getting slagged off are those who put Dave Ibbotson into this untenable situation, if he thought he was flying in daylight he was going to be operating within his capabilities, as soon as it became a night flight he was outside his legal capabilities but he foolishly took a chance.....now if the organisers knew he was a DAY VFR only pilot I would hope they get a deserving punishment for having such a blatant disregard for his wellbeing, the same has to be said for putting anyone in a situation where they have put their trust in an organiser to get them somewhere by reliable means.
It makes no diference if the passenger is the School Janitor or a £15m Footballer, their life has the same value to their loved ones.

Dave Ibbotson's family will have to pick up the pieces & I feel really sorry for them, the organisers of the flight will have to be held responsible for their part in all this & if all the journalist content from the McKays is all factual I would hope it puts an end to his unsavoury antics.... If Football club owners are reading the remarks from Willie McKay I would hope they cease dealings with him as his remarks highlight he only see's their transfers as his ' easy money '
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 20:27
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Originally Posted by Flap 80 View Post
Much has been said about the legality or otherwise of cost sharing , the Wingly business potentially eroding safety margins for unsuspecting customers and all discussions relate to the carriage of Human passengers.
is there a potential for similar pseudo commercial flights being made between the Channel Islands and the UK ( and vice versa) for the carriage of animals?
The Jersey Aero club Facebook page now carries an advertisement posted on January 27 th asking for someone “ to pick up a puppy at Lydd on February 16 th” and presumably to fly it to Jersey.
My aunt (who lives in St Brelade) had a spaniel delivered by PA32 flown by someone from the aeroclub who did it as a favour for an elderly lady. Pick up was in Exeter. She was going to give him a bottle of scotch, when I told her how much the flight should have cost for him and his wife to go for lunch she made it a very good bottle of scotch, and I believe his wife cost him a superb bottle of Margeaux do go with the lamb she had at a rather nice eatery in Devon.

No money changed hands in my aunt's case, but I wonder if it has formed an idea on the minds of others.

SND
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Old 2nd Feb 2019, 21:26
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Anyway it shows the pilot filed that the aircraft was mode S equipped, which is what I was after. If it was on the BEA would knows pretty much where the aircraft is.
Do you mean it had Mode S, or if it had ADS-B? (see yesterday's helpful post re the difference between the two). Only ADS-B, if so equipped, would help the investigation with the location.

That said, and notwithstanding what the FPL said, I have trouble believing the aircraft even had functioning basic Mode S. N264DB has been based in the UK for several years, and photographed at a range of airfields, but I have yet to see any evidence of it sending even basic altitude/squawk/callsign data over Mode S.

Its allocated ICAO24 address was A28E26 - if anyone can find a record of Mode S transmissions from that address at any time in the last few years, I'd be interested to hear where from.
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