Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 2nd Feb 2019, 10:08
  #941 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: S.E.Asia
Posts: 1,765
Originally Posted by 2Donkeys View Post

The more interesting question will be whether the investigation of the circumstances surrounding this flight bring to light a more commonplace culture of illicit charters in the sports world. Not just football, but perhaps horse racing too. Then the spotlight would be on the regulator (CAA and DGAC) as to why they had apparently lost control of a small but important chunk of their responsibility.
Well summed up and that was the point I was trying to make 2D.

Mike Flynn is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 10:36
  #942 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 513
runway30 is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 10:39
  #943 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Here
Posts: 1,786
113knots?!
Sam Rutherford is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 10:47
  #944 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: LONDON
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
Dave Ibbotson wasn’t the only one with problems in the Courts. According to The Telegraph a winding up order from HMRC has been adjourned until next month. Mercato Sports is the McKay family company run by McKay’s wife and son. Of course Willie McKay can’t run it himself because he is not a fit and proper person according to the Football Association. The McKays have a history of problems with HMRC.

In the High Court of Justice (Chancery Division)

Companies Court No 008651 of 2018

In the Matter of MERCATO SPORTS (UK) LTD

(Company Number 10683175)

and in the Matter of the Insolvency Act 1986

A Petition to wind up the above-named Company, Registration Number 10683175, of ,Martin Grange Lodge, Martin Common, Bawtry, Doncaster, DN10 6DD, presented on12 October 2018 by the COMMISSIONERS FOR HM REVENUE AND CUSTOMS, of South West Wing, Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4RD,, claiming to be Creditors of the Company, will be heard at the High Court, Royal Courts of Justice, 7 Rolls Building, Fetter Lane, London, EC4A 1NL on 23 January 2019 at 1030 hours (or as soon thereafter as the Petition can be heard).

Any persons intending to appear on the hearing of the Petition (whether to support or oppose it) must give notice of intention to do so to the Petitioners or to their Solicitor in accordance with Rule 7.14 by 1600 hours on 22 January 2019 .

The Petitioners` Solicitor is the Solicitor to, HM Revenue and Customs,Solicitor's Office & Legal Services, South West Wing, Bush House, Strand, London, WC2B 4RD,telephone 03000 589216 . (Ref SLR1968947/Z.)

11 January 2019

When the legal actions start, as they inevitably will, who actually has any money?

The address ( Martin Grange Lodge, Martin Common, Bawtry, Doncaster, DN10 6DD ) is most likely on the MARTIN GRANGE FARM estate that encompasses :
Property Features, A superbly restored 6 bedroom farmhouse, Detached staff cottage, Excellent equestrian facilities, In excess of 35 acres, All weather track with a half mile gallop, Walled courtyard enclosed by the traditional stables, 27 stables, tack and feed rooms in the large American Barn beyond & Horse walker, lunging ring and weighing machine.
This was on the market for £2,000,000 until recently but is now marked as Property no longer available.

https://www.houseladder.co.uk/property_for_sale/6086042



So there is some collateral sitting in this property, strangely Martin Grange Lodge was also on the market for £1,250,000 with the following details:
NO LONGER AVAILABLE
  • Around 32 acres in all
  • Professional 1 mile all weather gallop
  • 27 stables, tack and feed rooms
  • Horse walker and lunging ring
  • Single storey brick and pan tile lodge
  • Lounge, fitted kitchen
  • Two bedrooms, two shower rooms
  • Superb equestrian facility
  • Option to purchase main farmhouse

Please note that the brochure also includes the farm house, additional stabling, paddocks, formal gardens and the all-weather sports pitch which is available by separate negotiation.


Martin grange lodge


Recently converted and providing additional accommodation with electric underfloor heating and UPVC sealed unit double glazing.

The Lounge has exposed trusses and French doors opening to the front, and there is a modern fitted Kitchen with integrated appliances.

The 2 Bedrooms each have En-Suite Shower Rooms.

The property is approached along Martin Grange Farm Lane.

There is an all weather 1 mile track and gallop comprising 4 round furlongs and 4 straights.

To the West is the American Barn providing 27 stables, tack and feed rooms, with adjacent horse walker and lunging ring.

There is over 32 acres in all.

I wonder if it is just MERCATO SPORTS (UK) LTD that is being wound up or whether MERCATO SPORTS (HOLDINGS) LTD is in the winding up order as well?
In all honesty I would think the winding up order is the least of the McKay's worries at this current time.

So it would seem that properties were getting put on the market to get some 'ready cash' https://mapio.co.uk/detail/476985/





House For Sale £1,250,000
Martin Grange Lodge, Martin Common, Bawtry, 6Dd. DN10


TRUTHSEEKER1 is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 11:13
  #945 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,219
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
deleted






First I don't think it is appropriate in times of GDPR to publish personal data like telephone numbers in public - i deleted the pic in reply - even and especially in such case!

If this really is the plan filed, there are a lot of questions. Wrong call sign? maybe even the G should have been N ;-)? 2 aircraft on the FPL? no POB? equipment list bogus? speed 113 knots? ok overlook the known odd behavior of Skydemon on filing ... why the hack should one use such odd border crossing point with two official one so close? I hope this is a fake as so far from a professional one, not even to PPL standards. Would France even accept such FPL, or would they not immediately call the pilot filing? My first impression, looks like 'alternate facts', hard to imagine somebody filing this way in reality, sorry.

Last edited by ChickenHouse; 2nd Feb 2019 at 11:30.
ChickenHouse is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 11:31
  #946 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 7,202
I guess a couple of million in transfer fees was going to be timely?
S-Works is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 11:35
  #947 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: TL487591
Posts: 1,639
Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
why the hack should one use such odd border crossing point with two official one so close?
I have no idea whether the plan shown is Fake News or not. On the simple Skydemon question though, SD, like many planning tools computes the point of FIR crossing automatically if the pilot has merely straddled the FIR with a DCT between two points. It does this as a convenience because an EET and and identified crossing point on the FIR is a FPL requirement. One that many ignore.
2Donkeys is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 11:45
  #948 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,219
Originally Posted by 2Donkeys View Post
I have no idea whether the plan shown is Fake News or not. On the simple Skydemon question though, SD, like many planning tools computes the point of FIR crossing automatically if the pilot has merely straddled the FIR with a DCT between two points. It does this as a convenience because an EET and and identified crossing point on the FIR is a FPL requirement. One that many ignore.
Just gave it a try, SD does compute the border crossing time, but it appears to not generate a waypoint at the border in the FPL route. The DCT point in the shown route is also not on the straight line between the two airports and it is not on the border crossing also.
ChickenHouse is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 11:46
  #949 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
First I don't think it is appropriate in times of GDPR to publish personal data like telephone numbers in public - i deleted the pic in reply - even and especially in such case!
His full address, mobile phone number and email contact are anyway publicly available via the UK's Gas Safe Register as he was according to the register approved to carry out repairs to Natural Gas and also LPG installations both commercial and domestic in the UK: (I've just checked and the phone number matches)
dsc810 is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 11:53
  #950 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 7,202
And its not like it matters now.....
S-Works is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 11:59
  #951 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: LONDON
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
Well this is very interesting because all the press were saying the Daytime flightplan had the name Dave Henderson as PILOT where that actually clearly shows the name David Ibbotson as PILOT.

Well this is very interesting because all the press were saying the Daytime flightplan had the FLIGHTPLAN filed as IFR where that actually clearly shows it was filed as VFR.

The mistake of the callsign is an easy mistake to make ( had this done to me by electronic inputting myself ) so I wouldn't think that is too big an issue?

The NO113 is a bit of a strange one to have put as a TAS? the distance from LFRS to the FIR Boundary (EGTT) is 170nm which @ 113kts would have been 90mins so the 99mins on the FPL is close to correct for the speed filed.
I am just assuming because it was a Skydemon FPL that either the 'aircraft profile' didn't have correct speeds or we have just spotted a glitch in the Skydemon system where it files times based on estimated groundspeed? ( supposition only ).

It is now looking like Dave Ibbotson really did think he was operating a daytime flight both ways, though it also seems apparent that the actual organisers knew that the return flight was scheduled for after sunset from the outset. It now changes the whole perception I have of what was asked of Dave Ibbotson & what was changed once he got to Nantes.
Sadly, Dave Ibbotson won't be able to defend,deny or enlighten the interested parties in what questions are now being asked.

Now it is such a maelstrom of facts & bs that the only conclusive outcome will be based on the official reports. I hope in some way that the focus isn't all aimed at Dave Ibbotson or his family members, I am sure 'smoke & mirrors' will be used to cover up a lot of stuff that went on in the vain hope of not dragging others down, so all the focus on Dave Ibbotson having £18k of CCJ's seems like a diversionary tactic by someone who owes a far more significant amount that the HMRC have their gnashers biting away at.
TRUTHSEEKER1 is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 13:20
  #952 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: The South
Posts: 69
Truthseeker #936

Spot on chum; my thoughts exactly
Timmy Tomkins is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 13:44
  #953 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 513
I feel desperately sorry for the family of Dave Ibbotson who must have had no idea that he was putting himself into such danger. Because everybody is trying to pass the blame to someone else, we are probably seeing things that we shouldn’t. We know from the emails released that it was always planned to be a night flight so somebody has got Dave Ibbotson there by telling him or letting him believe that it was a daytime flight, knowing all along that it would be a nightime flight that he did not have the skills to undertake. It was so dangerous and so reckless. Yes, Dave Ibbotson should have said no but he probably spent the day wondering how to get out of it and I wonder if the reported RTOs were Dave Ibbotson knowing that he really wasn’t equipped to do it. If he had have survived as far as Cardiff, what were his chances if it was his first time ILS at night? In that weather?

Last edited by runway30; 2nd Feb 2019 at 13:47. Reason: Spelling
runway30 is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 14:01
  #954 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,032
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
I feel desperately sorry for the family of Dave Ibbotson who must have had no idea that he was putting himself into such danger. Because everybody is trying to pass the blame to someone else, we are probably seeing things that we shouldn’t. We know from the emails released that it was always planned to be a night flight so somebody has got Dave Ibbotson there by telling him or letting him believe that it was a daytime flight, knowing all along that it would be a nightime flight that he did not have the skills to undertake. It was so dangerous and so reckless. Yes, Dave Ibbotson should have said no but he probably spent the day wondering how to get out of it and I wonder if the reported RTOs were Dave Ibbotson knowing that he really wasn’t equipped to do it. If he had have survived as far as Cardiff, what were his chances if it was his first time ILS at night? In that weather?

Likewise I very feel sorry him and his family, I also believe there must have been many other external pressures put on David for him to knowingly set off on a flight he was clearly not qualified in so many ways to undertake.

Those pressures most likely came from the football club brokers who organised the flight, his so called friend who asked him to do the flight, financial pressure from various sources, the whole thing sinks to high heaven and I do hope the people involved with arranging this flight are found guilty and jailed along with their assets taken off them and sold.

Although sadly the buck does stop with the pilot in command to say no I cannot do it today.
Above The Clouds is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 14:24
  #955 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: LONDON
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
Just gave it a try, SD does compute the border crossing time, but it appears to not generate a waypoint at the border in the FPL route. The DCT point in the shown route is also not on the straight line between the two airports and it is not on the border crossing also.
Just tried the SD system in exactly the way you say & it came up with this, I always move the magenta line to the FIR to temporarily create a waypoint into the plog but didn't do this the second time to see what SD does.... that is ingenious that SD actually do the calc if you forget to



TRUTHSEEKER1 is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 14:59
  #956 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,219
Interesting, mine does not do that automatically. What exactly did you do to generate that result?
ChickenHouse is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 15:18
  #957 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: LONDON
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Above The Clouds View Post
Likewise I very feel sorry him and his family, I also believe there must have been many other external pressures put on David for him to knowingly set off on a flight he was clearly not qualified in so many ways to undertake.

Those pressures most likely came from the football club brokers who organised the flight, his so called friend who asked him to do the flight, financial pressure from various sources, the whole thing sinks to high heaven and I do hope the people involved with arranging this flight are found guilty and jailed along with their assets taken off them and sold.

Although sadly the buck does stop with the pilot in command to say no I cannot do it today.
I suspect quite a few of us have made rash decisions when it comes to our flying ( I know I have ! ) so I don't think Dave Ibbotson is the first person who got it totally wrong by being influenced by peer pressure ( put it this way, if Dave Ibbotson had successfully got Emiliano Sala to Cardiff he would have been the 'Hero' but because it has gone totally badly he is now being tarred by the 'Zero' brush ).

I can't even justifiably say I blame him for trying to make the flight, he was possibly under immense pressure to keep the 'wolf from the door' & this if conducted in daylight should have been an easy trip for him in VFR conditions, but when the goalposts are moved slightly it adds a bit more pressure on the pilot, I am thinking the goalposts weren't moved slightly but moved by a golden mile so the pressure would have been immense on Dave Ibbotson. If he genuinely thought he was flying back during daylight hours ( which I suspect he did, otherwise why file an 0900 flightplan? ) it is probably likely that the facts that a 1930 departure was already agreed weren't relayed to Dave Ibbotson until after he filed a 0900 FLIGHTPLAN.

Taking that he was asked if he fancied a ' Weekend in Nantes ' I would take that as fly out Saturday & return Sunday or early Monday at the latest. ( Monday hasn't ever been part of my weekend, but I have had a weekend away where I flew back first thing Monday ).

I am also hoping that the focus is on the right people when it gets to that stage, there are going to be quite a few names in the frame & I too would like them to be held responsible for their part in the Sala flight arrangements.
TRUTHSEEKER1 is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 15:36
  #958 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: EGKK
Age: 57
Posts: 65
Much has been said about the legality or otherwise of cost sharing , the Wingly business potentially eroding safety margins for unsuspecting customers and all discussions relate to the carriage of Human passengers.
is there a potential for similar pseudo commercial flights being made between the Channel Islands and the UK ( and vice versa) for the carriage of animals?
The Jersey Aero club Facebook page now carries an advertisement posted on January 27 th asking for someone “ to pick up a puppy at Lydd on February 16 th” and presumably to fly it to Jersey.
Flap 80 is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 15:43
  #959 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: LONDON
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
Just gave it a try, SD does compute the border crossing time, but it appears to not generate a waypoint at the border in the FPL route. The DCT point in the shown route is also not on the straight line between the two airports and it is not on the border crossing also.
If you put that waypoint in using the Nddmmss Wdddmmss format it puts it 3.5nm to the east side of the DCT line but it is pretty much on the FIR Boundary line albeit 0.4nm off.

Are you using Nddmmss Wdddmmss or a different format ?
TRUTHSEEKER1 is offline  
Old 2nd Feb 2019, 15:44
  #960 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,032
Above The Clouds
Likewise I very feel sorry him and his family, I also believe there must have been many other external pressures put on David for him to knowingly set off on a flight he was clearly not qualified in so many ways to undertake.

Those pressures most likely came from the football club brokers who organised the flight, his so called friend who asked him to do the flight, financial pressure from various sources, the whole thing sinks to high heaven and I do hope the people involved with arranging this flight are found guilty and jailed along with their assets taken off them and sold.

Although sadly the buck does stop with the pilot in command to say no I cannot do it today.
Truthseeker
I suspect quite a few of us have made rash decisions when it comes to our flying ( I know I have ! ) so I don't think Dave Ibbotson is the first person who got it totally wrong by being influenced by peer pressure ( put it this way, if Dave Ibbotson had successfully got Emiliano Sala to Cardiff he would have been the 'Hero' but because it has gone totally badly he is now being tarred by the 'Zero' brush ).
Were have I tarred him with a zero brush ?
Above The Clouds is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.