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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 31st Jan 2019, 19:09
  #901 (permalink)  
 
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As has been shown 'everyone' is learning from this bulletin board
As a recently qualified PPL(A) intending to progress to IR (purely recreational purposes only) I am learning a tremendous amount from the discussions on this forum, and this thread is no exception. It's the main reason I 'lurk'.

I know there have to be limits, but it would be shame to stifle the conversation too much. Perhaps nothing can beat personal experience, but there are many situations discussed in this thread where I am quite happy to learn second hand! As well as learning more about flight ops, my eyes have been opened to the extent - and complexity - of the regulations surrounding GA. What I studied for the PPL Air Law exam is much less than 1% of real-world regulation. Honestly, I now feel that flying the aeroplane is the easy part!

Some more experienced forumites may think many discussion points are tedious and futile, but believe me they are an excellent learning resource for new pilots and long may they continue.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 19:09
  #902 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CBSITCB View Post
"Ms Fay Keely of Coolflourish Limited" see post #234.

There was a personal bio of of Ms Keely on a company website stating she is a pilot but it was removed a few days ago. Strange coincidence...
I have also been told that and I have also been told that she is not the ultimate beneficial owner but nobody has shown me any evidence.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 19:13
  #903 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
TRUTHSEEKER1
Where did you get that " categoric" from ? news media ?
From an Official resource, await the official accident report & it will say so.

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Old 31st Jan 2019, 19:17
  #904 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CBSITCB View Post
"Ms Fay Keely of Coolflourish Limited" see post #234.

There was a personal bio of of Ms Keely on a company website stating she is a pilot but it was removed a few days ago. Strange coincidence...
try using archive.org and there may be a copy cached.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 19:50
  #905 (permalink)  
 
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IF there is any doubt there is no doubt

Originally Posted by CBSITCB View Post
As a recently qualified PPL(A) intending to progress to IR (purely recreational purposes only) I am learning a tremendous amount from the discussions on this forum, and this thread is no exception. It's the main reason I 'lurk'.

I know there have to be limits, but it would be shame to stifle the conversation too much. Perhaps nothing can beat personal experience, but there are many situations discussed in this thread where I am quite happy to learn second hand! As well as learning more about flight ops, my eyes have been opened to the extent - and complexity - of the regulations surrounding GA. What I studied for the PPL Air Law exam is much less than 1% of real-world regulation. Honestly, I now feel that flying the aeroplane is the easy part!

Some more experienced forumites may think many discussion points are tedious and futile, but believe me they are an excellent learning resource for new pilots and long may they continue.
The adage ‘if there is any doubt there is no doubt’ was the best advice I was given when I learned to fly. Having scanned the conditions proposed route and FL I would be amazed if there were no doubts.

The PPL is a licence to learn and using your judgement wisely to manage the risks is key. I’ve only once flown in icing conditions on an IMC training flight. We had details of the freezing level and the cloud level so knew it was a factor. We also had ‘space’ to descend out of the cloud to warmer air. I was surprised how quickly the ice started to accumulate and grateful that I had an experienced instructor with me, it was daylight and we had agreed to plan before setting off. We were also getting an ATC service at the time. We were initially requested to climb into to the cloud as it was the height required for the ILS procedure we were following. ATC promptly allowed us to descend when we explained our situation.

i hope the accident report uncovers the series of events which led to this tragedy but I suspect judgement and decision making will come into play.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 20:01
  #906 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
I also saw it before it was deleted but just because she has a PPL doesn’t connect her in any way to this accident.
Agreed.

There are (at least) two strands to this thread. The first is the “professional pilots” strand to do with flight ops, aviation, safety, etc. The other is the “rumour” strand where the discussion is more general and has piqued the interest of some of us, which sets the purely aviation aspects into a wider context. We are ‘investigating’ that too.

Fay Keely is just one of the many post-it notes on the wall; a small factoid. It is down to Inspector Knacker to draw a line to another of the post-it notes, or several, or none.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 20:12
  #907 (permalink)  
 
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On Facebook just now saw an advert for a Pilatus for dry hire, no mention of an AOC, G-reg. Renter to organise fuel and the pilot, insurance (which one) for the plane owner. Interesting blog also on the webpage.https://flexifly.co.uk/hire-agreement/ , I had to think about this thread, even though a turbine is better than piston. I happen to be a lapsed PPL, but many unsuspecting non-pilots may not know the additional differences between a charter and dry hire. Is it safe enough?
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 20:18
  #908 (permalink)  
 
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https://web.archive.org/web/20180331...uk/who-we-are/

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Old 31st Jan 2019, 20:40
  #909 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1 View Post
I have read that myself so it now opens up an investigation into how his ID was visibly checked by a French Airport official? If it has been submitted as an ID I think it is fair to say that it wasn't Emiliano Sala who submitted it as his ID so it to some degree points towards the Pilot having mistakenly shown an incorrect ID at some point of his transit through the airport?

That can be the only feasible explanation? D
You have to remember that what you have heard has been reported in the press ( totally unreliable) or passed on from the French authorities ( perhaps some is lost in translation, so equally unreliable). At the end of the day we will have to await the AAIB report.

However any of us could give you a perfectly reasonable explanation of how Henderson’s “ID” ( note the inverted commas) came into the frame.

As has been explained if the pilot was short of cash/lost his credit card then it would not be unbelievable for Henderson to lend him a company credit card to use for the flight expenses. When I had one my name appeared on the card.

There would have been bills to pay at Nantes prior to departure for fuel, parking, landing fees, handling etc. Probably paid on said credit card.

When the poo hit the fan later it would not be unreasonable ( in the middle of the night) for the French authorities to look through the movements log and get the name Henderson from the payment records and put one and one together and make three.

I’m sure there are other pilots on here who could probably give you other examples of how this error could occur....if they were so inclined.

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Old 31st Jan 2019, 20:46
  #910 (permalink)  
 
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I am sure that most players in this sorry saga have well and truly gone to ground. In doing so, should they have been involved in dubious actions, such activities and elements which were unacceptable or controversial will have been sanitised.

Future legal jurisprudence has many elements which need to come together to resolve what happened. It may never occur and even when it does much of this will be history and will not have the media impact that this episode has courted.

At best it may cause the relevant authorities to review and change legislation but as someone alluded to they do not have the finances or staff. Furthermore we may have left the EU by then which might also impact on this resolution of this tragedy.
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Old 31st Jan 2019, 20:51
  #911 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1 View Post
Ms Fay Keeley is a chartered accountant who is more than likely employed to focus on providing accurate records of all financial transactions for an individual or business. Thus I would think she is in the employ of the McKay's in some way, this type of accountant is more likely to be found employed in a more commercial capacity so the chances are she is a 'name' that is attached to McKay assets.
Ms Fay Keeley has connections to Nottingham Forest Football Academy Limited which puts her in the ideal position to be linked to Willie McKay, it is known that the McKay's have fingers in most football teams in the middle of the UK.

The Malibu in question is highly likely to be a McKay asset, the McKay's have previously owned a Navajo G-EEJE that Dave Henderson used to fly, chances are the C421 G-BBUJ was operated for the McKay's as that was flown by Henderson prior to it's accident in Portimao. A Beech King Air was also mentioned in passing as being a McKay aircraft.

I would also think N315P Cessna 310 is somewhere connected in the Cool Flourish / McKay links? G-EEJE / G-ILTS / N315P all carry the same colourscheme & whilst this might be the colours of PETER HENRY JOHNSON who operated a company called PRIVATE FLIGHT LIMITED it is well known that Dave Henderson was one of the Private Flight designated pilots.
G-BBUJ was a Cool Flourish aircraft, G-EEJE was an Excelfoot Ltd. aircraft which belonged to Mark McKay.

I don’t know who the beneficial owner of Cool Flourish is, and my lawyer has asked me to point out that I accept entirely the statement of Willie McKay that he is is not the owner, but if he had have been the owner he will never be able to admit it.
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 01:21
  #912 (permalink)  
 
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I just read this as a statement from McKay in the Press.

"Cardiff had originally proposed paying for a commercial flight for Sala but McKay said: 'When you spend €17m on a footballer, you don't put him on an EasyJet flight.' "

Is this guy for real?
I guess you rather put him in a SEP, with a PPL Pilot who is a plumber. McKay does not come out of this very well. Sala was in his care, until he was supposed to join up with Cardiff.
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 02:29
  #913 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 2unlimited View Post
I just read this as a statement from McKay in the Press.

"Cardiff had originally proposed paying for a commercial flight for Sala but McKay said: 'When you spend €17m on a footballer, you don't put him on an EasyJet flight.' "

Is this guy for real?
I guess you rather put him in a SEP, with a PPL Pilot who is a plumber. McKay does not come out of this very well. Sala was in his care, until he was supposed to join up with Cardiff.
Published e-mail from McKay to Sala.

'We do not say 'we are like a father to a son to our players'. No, if you had not been a footballer, these people would not be interested in you.

'In the end they are only interested in the money. What we all want a lot of, of course. That's why we like to work with just the clubs. No sentiment, we're just doing business.'

He had no interest in Sala’s welfare, it was just “business”

Last edited by runway30; 1st Feb 2019 at 04:27. Reason: Correction
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 05:04
  #914 (permalink)  
 
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Published by Willie McKay.

"I said to Dave [Henderson], I need a plane. He said no problem. He paid the landing fees and fuel."

According to McKay, Henderson had to pay for Ibbotson's hotel in France, and for the airline fuel. Ibbotson, who had written online that he was a bit "rusty" before the flight, had reportedly told Henderson that he had lost his credit card.

Willie McKay is trying to walk this ridiculous tightrope because he can’t say that he owned the aircraft and he doesn’t want to say that he chartered it so I think he is trying to say that it was a private flight but without him being responsible for the aircraft? Of course Henderson handed over his bank card because Ibbotson had lost his if we just overlook that Ibbotson shouldn’t have been flying anyway.
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 06:38
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The insurance claim on this will be interesting​​​​​​.

Apart from the hull there is the question of public liability.

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Old 1st Feb 2019, 07:56
  #916 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post
The insurance claim on this will be interesting​​​​​​.
I trust the Investigator will look at who is any life insurance beneficiary.
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 09:10
  #917 (permalink)  
Aso
 
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EASA has brought us many more rules, making things far more difficult (for those legally plying their trade) to make a living.
However, it seems to have left some large loopholes through lack of enforcement
The enforcement is done through the competent authority. Now how that works for a dodgy N reg in Europe I am not sure... My gut feeling says that the CAA is the competent authority so they would be the enforcement agency, not EASA.
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 10:02
  #918 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
I trust the Investigator will look at who is any life insurance beneficiary.
My experience of insurance is the underwriters will appoint a loss adjuster. Normally loss of hull, where no one is injured or dies, is simple.

Where it gets complicated is if there are other innocent parties involved. Shoreham being a prime example or the tragedy where the police helicopter crashed on the pub.

Clearly this accident throws up all sorts of questions not least who engaged the pilot and what was known about his qualifications.


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Old 1st Feb 2019, 14:10
  #919 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Aso View Post
The enforcement is done through the competent authority. Now how that works for a dodgy N reg in Europe I am not sure...
I anticipate that the FAA will be really hacked off at getting dragged into an investigation where the relevant overseas authority has let things get to this stage. Can you imagine the FAA tolerating for a moment flag-of-convenience aircraft operating inside the USA against their regulations.

Clearly this accident throws up all sorts of questions not least who engaged the pilot and what was known about his qualifications.
It's a grey area because normally the sanction against a bad operator is to cancel their AOC. The regulations don't cater nearly so well for someone who never had an AOC in the first place.
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Old 1st Feb 2019, 14:17
  #920 (permalink)  
 
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The grey area appears to be flying an N reg outside the USA on an airmans certificate linked to a UK licence.

I recall busting the airspace around the Woomera rocket range in Australia flying an N reg Lance from Ayers Rock across the outback in 1989. On landing at Port Augusta I was asked to phone Adelaide who berated me,asked for my Aussie licence details (I had none at the time), and let me go because they had no jurisdiction. They were a bit shocked when asked for my point of departure and I replied Detroit.

However Australia did not allow N reg aircraft to be operated by residents for longer than a year.I had to change the the aircraft and my licences to comply.

That is to avoid US registration disguising aircraft owners behind shell companies using it as a flag of convenience.

Most of the current fleet of N reg UK based aircraft are rarely owned by US citizens.

The FAA certificate is clearly linked to the UK licence so surely the buck stops with the CAA?







Last edited by Mike Flynn; 1st Feb 2019 at 14:34.
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