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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 29th Jan 2019, 21:25
  #841 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Good Business Sense View Post
On an AOC trip today an operator's pilots were asked, by the passengers, "in the light of recent events", to show their licenses !!!!
Plenty of pilots with commercial licenses and IR's doing dodgy charter, it's the AOC certificate the passengers need to see. While a commercial license (or ATPL) assures a certain level of knowledge and training the full legal protection is given by the AOC, and on an AOC flight if you aren't at least a CPL you're not sitting in the pilot's seat. I have no doubt the pilots of the Eclipse that flew Sala to Cardiff were commercially licensed, what I doubt is that it was an AOC flight, and therefore, probably as legally dubious as the PA46 flight.

I fly for an AOC, most of the brokers who use us have our AOC certificate and insurance on file, direct customers get a copies with their written charter agreement. That certificate takes some getting, is very easy to lose, is expensive, has specifically named personnel as post holders, all of whom qualify for the positions they hold and are accountable in law. The pilots operate to an accepted Operations Manual, and their duty and training records are subject to both internal and external audit, along with SMS, mandatory maintenance contracts, and sometimes, at our expense we are audited by organisations such as Wyvern, who audit us on behalf of large corporations and key man insurers to ensure we are up to snuff.

Basically the same procedures and licensing processes as BA, Virgin, EasyJet, Tui, FlyBe and all the rest, but in a company a fraction of the size. I'm one of the post holders and sometimes when I'm drowning in paperwork, regulated to a high shine I see the "illegal" operators around and have to fight back a huge temptation to beat the pilots to death with the Ops Manual. What stops me is that a criminal record would make AOC employment a touch difficult, and I couldn't drop my standards to where those pilots are.

SND
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 21:45
  #842 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia View Post
Plenty of pilots with commercial licenses and IR's doing dodgy charter, it's the AOC certificate the passengers need to see. While a commercial license (or ATPL) assures a certain level of knowledge and training the full legal protection is given by the AOC, and on an AOC flight if you aren't at least a CPL you're not sitting in the pilot's seat. I have no doubt the pilots of the Eclipse that flew Sala to Cardiff were commercially licensed, what I doubt is that it was an AOC flight, and therefore, probably as legally dubious as the PA46 flight.

I fly for an AOC, most of the brokers who use us have our AOC certificate and insurance on file, direct customers get a copies with their written charter agreement. That certificate takes some getting, is very easy to lose, is expensive, has specifically named personnel as post holders, all of whom qualify for the positions they hold and are accountable in law. The pilots operate to an accepted Operations Manual, and their duty and training records are subject to both internal and external audit, along with SMS, mandatory maintenance contracts, and sometimes, at our expense we are audited by organisations such as Wyvern, who audit us on behalf of large corporations and key man insurers to ensure we are up to snuff.

Basically the same procedures and licensing processes as BA, Virgin, EasyJet, Tui, FlyBe and all the rest, but in a company a fraction of the size. I'm one of the post holders and sometimes when I'm drowning in paperwork, regulated to a high shine I see the "illegal" operators around and have to fight back a huge temptation to beat the pilots to death with the Ops Manual. What stops me is that a criminal record would make AOC employment a touch difficult, and I couldn't drop my standards to where those pilots are.

SND
Sir, the point that I have been trying to make and been shouted down is that the next stage of due diligence is that companies booking air charter should ensure that they have a booking with an AOC holder. They don’t even have to see the Certificate, they can look it up online. It is good health and safety and good corporate governance but this one industry (football) has managed to reduce the confidence of the public in air transport and that is not good for anyone.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 21:58
  #843 (permalink)  
 
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TRUTHSEEKER ... Thanks for that ... the only experience I have of crossing the Channel is many times from around Folkstone to Cap Griz Nez ...the old LAC (Light Aircraft Corridor) so long trips over the sea were never part of my flying ... though I did once fly almost directly from Ostend to Southend (EGMC) ... I was very young at the time and should never have done that in my opinion now. I believe in keeping sea crossings as short as possible and having the height to glide to land from mid channel for example. When I was in my early twenties I didn't really think about this much and used to cross the Channel at 3000 feet. This would only have given me around 8 or 9 miles of glide in a PA28 according to what I was told back then, though I have subsequently learned that this was probably a little optimistic? Possibly 6 or 7 miles with 2 on board and full tanks. (Tanks filled in order to get the customs drawback on the fuel.)
You mentioned in an earlier post that Casquets Island had been referred to in regard to the route taken by this plane. Overflying this island or thereabouts, would be on a direct flight path to Cardiff.

Last edited by keni010; 29th Jan 2019 at 22:14.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 22:23
  #844 (permalink)  
 
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Arkroyal,
I had close links to a Football Team that was an education in how not to do things..... they would spend millions of pounds on playing staff without a seconds thought, the managing director would walk around the stadium turning off lights in corridors & picking up errant paperclips to save a few quid off the running costs of the stadium.

They also would penny-pinch by getting members of staff to give bed & board to apprentice players that weren't local raised.

The team I refer to are of a higher calibre than Cardiff FC but they also used Private aircraft with whoever they could get to fly directors & players around.

Luckily they never came a cropper.
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Old 29th Jan 2019, 23:16
  #845 (permalink)  
 
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Runway30;

If you think footballs bad, pop around the racecourses sometime. The jockeys rarely fly, unless your name is Detorri or a couple of others you can’t afford it, but I watch plenty of owners and trainers paying for illegal flights. The recent incident at Haydock certainly wasn’t an AOC aircraft.

Worse perhaps, the Twin Comanche trying to get into Chalgrove, a CPL on his way to collect other CPL’s, no AOC, but he wasn’t flying in those conditions for the fun of it.

The CAA did a campaign about flights being legal some time ago, maybe a few “operators” or flight arrangers going to prison with some of their pilots might bring better publicity.

Harsh fines including the forfeiture of aircraft might also help. But the “Red Tape Challenge” has really made a murky area murkier, a lawyer mate reckons it has made a successful prosecution a difficult prospect.

SND
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 06:39
  #846 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


Sir, the point that I have been trying to make and been shouted down is that the next stage of due diligence is that companies booking air charter should ensure that they have a booking with an AOC holder.

If it's any consolation, at least one person is listening: that's my takeaway from all this. I feel informed enough now to make my own judgement call for myself, but I will certainly be recommending the requirement for an AOC to my client.

Meanwhile the silence here with regard to my repeated questions on CI flying practices I perceive to be widespread is deafening.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 07:17
  #847 (permalink)  
 
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See news article below for an interesting statement on the likely search area
Quote: "25 sq miles, north of the Hurd Deep."
https://gsy.bailiwickexpress.com/gsy...-start-sunday/
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 07:45
  #848 (permalink)  
 
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I also flew many cross channel flights in PA28s & C150s in my early ppl days which with hindsight now i’d never do, especially after attending an RAF SAR lecture where I learnt the truth of SE ditching risks, very humbling. Respects to family , a very sad event.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 09:48
  #849 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia View Post
"Red Tape Challenge” has really made a murky area murkier
Can you elaborate on that? What do you mean by "Red tape challenge"?
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 09:51
  #850 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia View Post
Plenty of pilots with commercial licenses and IR's doing dodgy charter, it's the AOC certificate the passengers need to see. While a commercial license (or ATPL) assures a certain level of knowledge and training the full legal protection is given by the AOC, and on an AOC flight if you aren't at least a CPL you're not sitting in the pilot's seat. I have no doubt the pilots of the Eclipse that flew Sala to Cardiff were commercially licensed, what I doubt is that it was an AOC flight, and therefore, probably as legally dubious as the PA46 flight.

I fly for an AOC, most of the brokers who use us have our AOC certificate and insurance on file, direct customers get a copies with their written charter agreement. That certificate takes some getting, is very easy to lose, is expensive, has specifically named personnel as post holders, all of whom qualify for the positions they hold and are accountable in law. The pilots operate to an accepted Operations Manual, and their duty and training records are subject to both internal and external audit, along with SMS, mandatory maintenance contracts, and sometimes, at our expense we are audited by organisations such as Wyvern, who audit us on behalf of large corporations and key man insurers to ensure we are up to snuff.

Basically the same procedures and licensing processes as BA, Virgin, EasyJet, Tui, FlyBe and all the rest, but in a company a fraction of the size. I'm one of the post holders and sometimes when I'm drowning in paperwork, regulated to a high shine I see the "illegal" operators around and have to fight back a huge temptation to beat the pilots to death with the Ops Manual. What stops me is that a criminal record would make AOC employment a touch difficult, and I couldn't drop my standards to where those pilots are.

SND
I think this is the best summary I have heard so far - I feel the same - having been in your position SND
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 11:24
  #851 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Midlifec View Post
Supposition based on a conversation with someone very close to the pilots that have been flying the subject aircraft.
Ah, that puts a different slant on it then......... Slowly,slowly bits are coming to light that are just making a bad accident look worse by the facts coming out of the woodwork.

There are now rumours that Dave Ibbotson suffered from colour blindness, that in itself doesn't curtail him from flying but it would be a problem if he has failed the OCVT test & couldn't pass the OCVT during day or night hours, the restriction will read, “Not valid for night flying or by color signal control.”

So, now it looks like the pilot was flying at night with an aircraft incapable of being flown in icing conditions in less than VFR conditions, it has also been implied that money was 'promised' to cover expenses & that an hourly rate was agreed for pilot services. ( all supposition at this time ).

It would seem that the recovery search is focusing on a 25sq mile area where the last known position was, lets hope they find something, it would be an even better result if they find a liferaft floating around.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 11:42
  #852 (permalink)  
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Somebody said earlier that £300,000 won’t go very far in an underwater search.

Lets hope a search of 25 square miles, a circle just over 2.8 miles In radius is lucky.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 12:35
  #853 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by meleagertoo View Post
Can you elaborate on that? What do you mean by "Red tape challenge"?
Red Tape Challenge
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 12:54
  #854 (permalink)  
 
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Sky News are reporting that the AAIB have said that they have found two seat cushions likely to have come from the aircraft.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 12:57
  #855 (permalink)  
 
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AAIB update today:

Update 2: Wednesday 30 January

Since we opened our safety investigation on Tuesday 23 January, we have been gathering evidence such as flight, aircraft and personnel records, and have been analysing radar data and air traffic tapes. We have been working closely with other international authorities and have kept the families of those involved updated on our progress.

On the morning of Monday 28 January, we were advised by the Bureau d’Enquêtes & d’Analyses (BEA), the French safety investigation authority, that part of a seat cushion had been found on a beach near Surainville on the Cotentin Peninsula. A second cushion was found in the same area later that day. From a preliminary examination we have concluded that it is likely that the cushions are from the missing aircraft.

From the moment we were notified of the missing aircraft, we have been looking at the feasibility of conducting an underwater seabed search for aircraft wreckage. Based on a detailed assessment of the flight path and last known radar position, we have now identified a priority search area of approximately four square nautical miles. Through the Ministry of Defence’s Salvage and Marine Operations (SALMO) Project Team, we have commissioned a specialist survey vessel to carry out an underwater survey of the seabed to try to locate and identify possible aircraft wreckage.

Due to the weather and sea conditions, we currently expect our underwater seabed search to start at the end of this weekend and to take up to three days. Side-scan sonar equipment will be used to try to locate the wreckage on the seabed. If the wreckage is found, a remotely operated vehicle (ROV) will be used to visually examine the wreckage.

We are aware that a privately operated search is also being conducted in the area, and we are liaising closely with those involved to maximise the chance of locating any wreckage and ensure a safe search operation.

Our remit is to undertake safety investigations to establish the cause of accidents. We do not apportion blame or liability.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a...ircraft-n264db
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 13:22
  #856 (permalink)  
 
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They've misspelled it, it should read Surtainville - East of Guernsey
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 14:07
  #857 (permalink)  
 
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It seems that there is a typo in the AAIB update quoted above. The beach would be near Surtainville, and not Surainville, on the Cotentin Peninsula - very near to the nuclear facility at Flamanville.
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Old 30th Jan 2019, 14:11
  #858 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


Before we go quiet it would be nice to know that someone other than the AAIB are investigating. The police will investigate an accidental/suspicious death but do the Guernsey Police have anything other than a missing person’s inquiry at the moment? Are the police even certain who has jurisdiction at the moment given the uncertainty over the crash location?
I was involved with the Linwood crash in 1999. Rest assured from personal experience the AAIB and Old Bill don't leave any stones un-turned

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_G...ssna_404_crash

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Old 30th Jan 2019, 16:45
  #859 (permalink)  
 
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Very initeresting read, especially about being IFR rated and gliding distances etc. Do you guys also calculate equal time points as well when crossing the channel?

The problem with Single / Multi Piston is that certain people think this type of flying is easy , when the irony is that this is probably one of the toughest flying gigs out there, and in my view should be only attempted by people who do this type of flying for a living and who are not part time in this business or treat single pilot ops as some form of hobby !





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Old 30th Jan 2019, 17:02
  #860 (permalink)  
 
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When the identical Malibu was filmed by the BBC for the "Ferry Pilot" documentary some of the shots showed the interior of the aircraft - and the seats. In that BBC programme they looked a cream or light beige colour. The seat washed ashore onto the beach at Surtainville looks as if it's light blue.
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