Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 22nd Jan 2019, 18:38
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Outside the 12 mile limit
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Neither PF or FR24 tracked it. Strange, but that's what they say as high enough for MLAT.
radiosutch is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 18:41
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,773
Received 193 Likes on 88 Posts
We don't know that FR24 didn't track it.

It may well have a voluntary agreement, as it does with many corporate/private aircraft owners, not to publish flight details.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 18:48
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Canada
Age: 37
Posts: 630
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by BluSdUp
I also find it strange that the search was called off in the early critical phase.
Anyway
I hope we can learn a thing or two from this tragic accident.
Nr 1 would be always carry an ELT!
The weather was absolutely miserable at around 0200 local time. They were up early again this morning looking for them and were still looking for them at around 1430 LCT when we departed.
Weather is getting worse again, it's currently snowing in London and moving that way.
lilflyboy262...2 is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 19:00
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 435
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Above The Clouds
Do N Reg aircraft not have ELT's built into the airframe that activate with contact on water or an impact ?
Impact only (in the case of ELT). They are not water acticated The transmisssions dont work to well if the aircraft then sinks
Russell Gulch is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 19:10
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vance, Belgium
Age: 61
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Some facts about N264DB:
- there is one photograph of it on Airliners from July 4, 2010. It shows it was equipped (in 2010) with de-ice boots and heating propeller pads.
Of course, this equipment might have been unserviceable on January 21th, 2019.
- the cruise ceiling of a PA-46-310P is 25,000 ft. At that altitude, it still has a ROC between 400 and 500 fpm but 25,000 ft is the limit dictated by the pressurisation system.

Last edited by Luc Lion; 22nd Jan 2019 at 19:40.
Luc Lion is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 19:39
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vance, Belgium
Age: 61
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
TAF and METAR for Cardiff and Jersey were:

EGFF 211644Z 2116/2212 22012KT 9999 SCT035 TEMPO 2116/2120 7000 -RA TEMPO
2120/2124 23016G26KT 6000 RA BKN010 PROB30 TEMPO 2120/2124 27020G30KT 4000 RA
BKN006 BECMG 2121/2124 28012KT TEMPO 2208/2212 6000 SHRA BKN010 PROB30 TEMPO
2208/2210 3000 SHRA SHRASN BKN008 PROB30 TEMPO 2210/2212 SHRA TSGS BKN008

EGFF 211820Z AUTO 22011KT 9999 -RA BKN021 OVC034 07/05 Q1014
EGFF 211850Z AUTO 23012KT 9999 -RA BKN020 BKN026 OVC045 07/05 Q1013
EGFF 211920Z AUTO 22011KT 9999 BKN033 BKN044 07/05 Q1013
EGFF 211950Z AUTO 22013KT 9999 BKN033 07/05 Q1012
EGFF 212020Z AUTO 22012KT 9999 SCT026 BKN034 07/05 Q1011
EGFF 212050Z AUTO 20012KT 9999 BKN023/// BKN039/// //////TCU 07/05 Q1010
EGFF 212120Z AUTO 20012KT 9999 -RA SCT024 BKN033 BKN040 07/05 Q1009
EGFF 212150Z AUTO 21012KT 6000 -RA BKN020/// OVC026/// //////TCU 07/06 Q1008

EGJJ 211707Z 2118/2203 20010KT 9999 FEW015 BKN030 TEMPO 2118/2124 -RA BKN015
PROB30 TEMPO 2118/2121 7000 SHRA BKN012 BECMG 2121/2123 22020KT BECMG 2202/2203
31017KT NSW SCT015

EGJJ 211820Z 22010KT 9999 SCT014 SCT025 BKN040 06/04 Q1019
EGJJ 211850Z 22011KT 9999 FEW018 SCT021 07/04 Q1018
EGJJ 211920Z 22011KT 9999 FEW016 SCT018 07/04 Q1018
EGJJ 211950Z 22012KT 9999 FEW018 SCT020 06/04 Q1017
EGJJ 212020Z 22013KT 9999 R26/1400 SCT014 07/04 Q1017
EGJJ 212050Z AUTO 22015KT 9999 1200 R26/1200 BR SCT014/// SCT018/// BKN033///
07/05 Q1016
EGJJ 212120Z AUTO 22015KT 9999 1400 FEW013/// OVC028/// 07/05 Q1016 RERA
EGJJ 212150Z AUTO 21015KT 9999 1400 FEW014/// SCT017/// BKN032/// 07/05 Q1015
RERA
Luc Lion is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 20:08
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 1,658
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2
The weather was absolutely miserable at around 0200 local time. They were up early again this morning looking for them and were still looking for them at around 1430 LCT when we departed.
Weather is getting worse again, it's currently snowing in London and moving that way.
A number of assets were utilised today, and they were stood down at approx 17:00 and the wind increased over the day. The earlier tasked assets involved in the search had been stood down in the early hours, as it would have been non-productive with the deteriorating conditions.

Unfortunately there was nothing found during today's search, and I'm not so sure the reports of red flares relate to the actual aircraft itself, and were more likely dropped by assets during the search.
helimutt is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 20:16
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: South of France
Posts: 1,035
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It may well have a voluntary agreement, as it does with many corporate/private aircraft owners, not to publish flight details.
FR24 didn't track it because, 'the transponder wasn't on or it was very old'.
Source: FR24
strake is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 20:28
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: In front of a computer
Posts: 2,339
Received 65 Likes on 28 Posts
Seems the questions are getting answered..

Experienced pilot - named in some media.
PA46-310P from 1984 owned under the usual UK trustee system.
"old" transponder meaning Mode C?
ETOPS is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 20:53
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Uka Duka
Posts: 1,002
Received 28 Likes on 11 Posts
God Damn Channel Islands - with it's own weather.
I've flown in there dozens of times and one minute you can count every star in the sky and the next - you can't see the end of the temp probe out the front of the windscreen.
Auxtank is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 21:32
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,773
Received 193 Likes on 88 Posts
Originally Posted by NAROBS
Isn't this machine declared on FR as having mode S which is spec'd to transmit every 25 ft change inaltitude and won't the French Primary radar be tracking everything that moves within 25 miles of Cap de la Hague nucleur asset ?
The question of whether it was equipped with Mode S ELS/EHS (25' altitude resolution) or simply Mode C (100') is largely immaterial. As a 35-year-old privately-owned aircraft it almost certainly didn't have ADS-B, which means that it would only have transmitted altitude when interrogated by ground radar.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 21:40
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London UK
Posts: 7,626
Likes: 0
Received 16 Likes on 14 Posts
Single engine, winter, snow forecast, night, possibly chartered from the low bidder. Prominent entertainer having the arrangements made for them.

Did we learn nothing from Buddy Holly ?
WHBM is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 21:56
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Canadian Shield
Posts: 538
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Aside from the human tragedy, I'd be interested in knowing whether Cardiff FC had organized life insurance on their £15m asset.

Even so, many life policies specifically exclude deaths in non-commercial or GA aircraft.

A financial loss on that scale could ultimately threaten the future of the entire club.
er340790 is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 22:06
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: ZRH
Age: 61
Posts: 574
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by kitchensinkrate
Saturday, January 19, 2019
Log Saturday 19/01/2019
Cardiff IAP Runway in use 12

Visitors
Landing at 11:44 is "N264DB" PA-46-310P Malibu N264DB ..parking on the GA apron ..departed at 12:15 to Guernsey
Departed to Guernsey?

If that is the case and they wanted to land there, this would explain the altitude.
AN2 Driver is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 22:15
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 15,773
Received 193 Likes on 88 Posts
That was the Saturday Cardiff to Nantes flight, via Guernsey.

It would only explain the low altitude on yesterday's flight if they had also planned to stop there on the return. We don't know that.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 22:16
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Central UK
Posts: 1,572
Received 102 Likes on 56 Posts
Originally Posted by WHBM
Single engine, winter, snow forecast, night, possibly chartered from the low bidder.
Chartered? On the N reg?

Wouldn't be the least but surprised if some shenanigan like this was involved - but if so the CAA need to come down on the perpetrators like a ton of hot bricks.
We hear far too much of this sort of chicanery.
Remember the Dettori near wipeout at Doncaster(?) racecourse last year? Yet another N reg being flown irresponsibly & dangerously in UK airspace with high value clients on board. "Lent" by friends was it? I'll bet.
meleagertoo is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 22:30
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Below transition level
Posts: 363
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
The great grey-area, dry lease hire... to quote a website offering such a service.

"All hires are on a “dry” basis, leaving customers free to organise their own flights and supply their own pilots. This makes the service very cost effective and flexible as overheads are kept to a minimum."

It also nicely sidesteps the reason why AOCs were created, SAFETY!
Fostex is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 22:32
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Swansea
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Unlikely to have been G-regd. There is only one, privately-owned, P46T on the UK register.
maybe coincidence but there is a pa46 stationed at Swansea with N Reg


Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Sala was reportedly making a return/farewell visit to Nantes, having signed the transfer deal in Cardiff on Saturday 19th.

It may of course be coincidence, but Malibu N264DB was noted departing Rhoose on Saturday morning, flightplanned to Guernsey.

It's an entry-level, piston-powered Malibu 310P (Continental TSIO-520).

if the aircraft raft started in South Wales - I know there is an N reg in the hangar at Swansea - I have a photo of it. Not the same as the Norfolk pa46


Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
Actually there are a couple of dozen Malibus registered to SAC.

But I'm not sure what the relevance of those are, given that they all likely belong to different owners, and AFAIK none has been noted at Cardiff recently (apart from N264DB).
the above mentioned aircraft is in a hangar in Swansea ... 20 minutes from Cardiff.

I have a photo of it; I always recognise a Malibu - it has that registration


Edddrewre is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 22:46
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by er340790
Aside from the human tragedy, I'd be interested in knowing whether Cardiff FC had organized life insurance on their £15m asset.

Even so, many life policies specifically exclude deaths in non-commercial or GA aircraft.

A financial loss on that scale could ultimately threaten the future of the entire club.
the Insured Person engaging in any form of air travel, unless travelling as a fare-paying passenger in an aircraft which is provided and operated by an airline or air charter company which must be licensed for this;

I think you will find that this is a fairly standard exclusion in a professional footballer insurance policy.

Whatever were they thinking!!!!?
runway30 is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2019, 22:50
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Amblesidel
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
While I agree with the above that AOCs provide a level of safety, nothing is being done about WINGLY flights either. In fact someone is offering WINGLY flights from Cardiff to Jersey and Alderney in a PA28 during the winter months, it is unlikely that the WINGLY pax understand that these pilots are not professionals and that they really should be wearing immersion suits in the event of a engine failure.
anchorhold is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.