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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 27th Jan 2019, 09:25
  #661 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rog747 View Post
Is there no radar coverage either civil or military (including any RN ships in the area) that could have picked up any of the track of this aircraft>?
Or is that being assimilated as we speak?

I am not privy to the last radio transmission times - Is there any possibility the aircraft could be much further towards CWL rather than around the Channel Islands?
You can be assured that this has been thought about by the SAR and follow up investigators and there is a reasonably well trodden protocol for checking military and civil sources, feeding that data back into drift and tide models etc. However, it would be unusual for any further information of this sort will be released until (and if) the relevant authorities chose to do so. That said it tends to be a much slower process from here than the SAR response.

It does rather make me wonder what the private search is going to do that the State hasn't or won't. They has raised 300,000 euro, which is not an inconsiderable sum of money, (enough to run the Channel Islands Air Search for a couple of years) but is chickenfeed in underwater recovery terms. It says it's purpose is
through a specialized non-profit organization, is to help the family of Emiliano and pilot Dave Ibbotson continue the research
Does anyone know which "specialist non-profit" and what sort of search?

Airborne search? It's a lot of hours in a c172 , not quite as many in an S-92 with search fit. A sea search? While the UK/CI may have stopped the 'Search and Rescue' I haven't seen anything to suggest that the normal underwater search protocols won't carry on at the appropriate times and the Port of Jersey authority has the right boats, most of the right survey kit and local knowledge.

What the state won't do, without a really good reason, is underwater water recovery so maybe if it is close inshore in shallow waters then they may find a commercial dive team suitable. But if it's deep and needs a specialised DSV then I have news for them, they've funded about 2 days not including mobilisation charges.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 09:31
  #662 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mryan75 View Post

Question on for my European counterparts: is cost-splitting the only reg you guys have dealing with this sort of "semi-commercial" op? In the colonies (ie the States), you have to:

a) share costs equally, to the penny. The pilot can't pay a cent less than his share.

b) only share DIRECT operating costs of the flight: aircraft rental, fuel, oil, etc. (no hangar fees, hourly kick-in for the engine overhaul, etc.)

and here is the bigly one:

c) COMMON purpose - the pilot not only has to have his own reason to be making that flight (an event, visiting family/friends, sightseeing, etc.), but it has to be COMMON between the pilot and the passengers. I as the pilot can't be going for lunch at the destination airport while my passenger goes to a meeting nearby.
The most illuminating post so far, given the registry and licensing circumstances here.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 09:39
  #663 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Daysleeper View Post
What the state won't do, without a really good reason, is underwater water recovery so maybe if it is close inshore in shallow waters then they may find a commercial dive team suitable. But if it's deep and needs a specialised DSV then I have news for them, they've funded about 2 days not including mobilisation charges.
The waters there are not deep for sounding survey and the area has also been carefully charted, due to all the crap sitting down there. After WWII they dumped all kind of stuff and later charted it to get a grip where the most dangerous stuff is. Side-scan sounding could do the search in that quite small area in a matter of days, just think of the equipment used for the MH370 search. Maybe Putin already knows from his u-boats in the channel where the wreck is?
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 09:41
  #664 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mach Tuck View Post
The most illuminating post so far, given the registry and licensing circumstances here.
Quite well known by pilots, same box of silence as the N-reg DME quest.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 09:43
  #665 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2 View Post

Whether this is an illegal commercial flight, or a private flight, is completely irrelevant in the cause of the crash. That is purely up to the lawyers and the validity of insurance cover. It will most likely come out that this was a legitimate private charter. I can only hope that this has put enough of a spotlight onto this type of charter and makes some passengers think twice before getting onto one.
.
It is not entirely irrelevant for the cause of the crash. As there would most likely have been a pressure on both the Pilot to get the player to Cardiff on this day, equally for the Sala to arrive on time for starting his new contract with Cardiff.

The aircraft could have crashed for X, Y or Z reasons, end of the day Sala should NEVER have been onboard this aircraft as a passenger. And its very likely that D.I would have NEVER flown this flight privately. Result would have been most likely both the Pilot and Sala still enjoying their lives.
Without a wreckage all those X, Y and Z reasons will never be determined, there will be guesses based on the most likely scenario, based on weight of the aircraft, weather conditions and any possible technical issues from the past.

Hopefully more details like photos of Salas luggage will help to see, it's serious amount of back peddling being made by McKay. The actual cause of the crash is unfortunately considering the circumstances less important for this investigation, more important is how this all came about and how widespread this is in the GA world.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 10:02
  #666 (permalink)  
 
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I can agree to the legality of the flight being not relevant for the accident itself per se.
But, we are posting in a pilots forum here.
My view, main purpose to discuss possibilities and what-if's for continuous improvement.
My target, openly discuss errors and decision making topics for the future, not the past.
My resumé, let blaming flaming to the ordinary ground folks.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 10:38
  #667 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting that Henderson's LinkedIn page has endorsments from a certain charter broker. As a private aviator flying private aircraft not on AOCs, one wonders why he'd have a particular relationship with a charter broker? Charter brokers more than anyone know the rules, at least they should. With a bulging portfolio of contacts from the sports personality world, one wonders how often the odd jocky, golfer or footballer, or their agents, PRs etc. still go through a friendly charter broker but get a cheap, non-AOC deal, off the balance sheet so to speak.

Like estate angents, charter brokers are not regulated, litterally anyone can sell 'charters' from their kitchen. You have charter industry representative bodies like BACA with 'Codes of Conduct' and no doubt members of such organisations are legitimate and behave themselves, but for every 'good guy' there are probably ten 'bad'. Caveat Emptor.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 10:49
  #668 (permalink)  
 
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I know there are many here who believe a flight of this nature should never have taken place in a piston single at night.

That said, the aircraft type was designed for this type of mission when flown IFR by a suitably qualified and licenced pilot.

If this flight had been planned using this aircraft, but IFR using the airways at a sensible flight level, it would almost certainly have ended uneventfully.

How difficult would it have been in practice to have found a suitably qualified CPL/IR to captain this flight?
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 10:52
  #669 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sillert,V.I. View Post
I know there are many here who believe a flight of this nature should never have taken place in a piston single at night.

That said, the aircraft type was designed for this type of mission when flown IFR by a suitably qualified and licenced pilot.

If this flight had been planned using this aircraft, but IFR using the airways at a sensible flight level, it would almost certainly have ended uneventfully.

How difficult would it have been in practice to have found a suitably qualified CPL/IR to captain this flight?
Probably not difficult ( but more money). However that still wouldnt make the flight legal with regard it being a charter and a fare paying customer. So it poses the question if you are prepared to pay the extra for a suitably qualified pilot - why not pay for a legal charter ?
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 11:00
  #670 (permalink)  
 
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Has been asked before on this thread, but who would be investigating this aside from the UK AAIB? Who takes the lead on the legal front? Are the US FAA doing an independent investigation to the UK CAA, indeed are the UK CAA doing anything? Are the UK Police interviewing the likes of the McKays, Dave Henderson, the beneficial owner(s) of the aircraft? Has someone gone down to Nantes already to ascertain exactly what was going on there the day the aircraft set-off with contradictions in pilot names, flight plans, passports etc.? Has someone spoken to people at Gamston, the maintenance outfit etc? No indication that there is any other investigation aside from the AAIB alone which will be entirely focused on the cause of the accident not the illegality of the flight?

Bottom line, aside from AAIB, is there a specific entity taking the lead on everything else?
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 11:01
  #671 (permalink)  
 
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In the 80's I used to fly light twins on an AOC , the customers were often people of high net worth , cricketers, some pop stars, CEOs etc. 90% was single crew ( there being no legal requirement for two crew - just a request from the the individual company due the HNW of the individual pax).
I can think of at least 10 " friends" who were keen to take my business ( customers) in their rented N registered ( sometimes G reg) aircraft because they could offer what they perceived to be the same service but cheaper ( with no AOC). I often had some heated discussions with them arguing the loophole which they believed exonerated them.
None of them are now pilots.
They were probably correct in some of their views and arguments - who is going to stop them in an N reg aircraft and ask to check their licence and qualification - hardly an FAA rep flying over for the sole purpose ... ( admittedly there was the chance of a ramp check in Europe , but they considered it a risk worth taking - probably a small fine for not having their licence with them ( if they had one).
I am not sure how much has changed - I suspect very little.
This accident has brought this illegal flying to the forefront - will anything change ? - Probably not - there is no oversight
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 11:11
  #672 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sillert,V.I. View Post
I know there are many here who believe a flight of this nature should never have taken place in a piston single at night.

That said, the aircraft type was designed for this type of mission when flown IFR by a suitably qualified and licenced pilot.

If this flight had been planned using this aircraft, but IFR using the airways at a sensible flight level, it would almost certainly have ended uneventfully.

How difficult would it have been in practice to have found a suitably qualified CPL/IR to captain this flight?
How would he know what the tops were if the flight was planned for 5k and under the CAS and which I assume was not intended to be flown on a clearance? He appears to have choosen to descend either to find warmer air or to get out of visible moisture in order to avoid iceing or reduce a build up in progress. Why would climbing to airway flight levels if indeed that was even possible if he already was experiencing icing been any better of a choice than descending if the tops were unknown to him?

Genuine question about airman/woman decision making, not focused exclusively on this tragic accident.



Last edited by piperboy84; 27th Jan 2019 at 11:41.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 11:17
  #673 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by piperboy84 View Post


How would he know what the tops were if the flight was planned for 5k and under CAS and which I assume was not intended to be flown on a clearance? He appears to have choosen to descend either to find for warmer air or to get out of visible moisture in order to avoid iceing or reduce a build up in progress. Why would climbing to airway flight levels if indeed that was even possible if he already was experiencing icing been any better of a choice than descending if the tops were unknown to him?

Genuine question about airman/woman decision making, not focused exclusively on this tragic accident.
I think the tops that evening exceeded the PA46 - probably around 28-30,000 ft
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 11:20
  #674 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by piperboy84 View Post


How would he know what the tops were if the flight was planned for 5k and under CAS and which I assume was not intended to be flown on a clearance? He appears to have choosen to descend either to find for warmer air or to get out of visible moisture in order to avoid iceing or reduce a build up in progress. Why would climbing to airway flight levels if indeed that was even possible if he already was experiencing icing been any better of a choice than descending if the tops were unknown to him?

Genuine question about airman/woman decision making, not focused exclusively on this tragic accident.
Have to agree,If the plane was full of ice,he was stuffed anyways,descend,climb You do the hokey pokey. And you turn yourself around.Too late for anything,doomed flight.

Last edited by ericsson16; 27th Jan 2019 at 13:42.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 11:24
  #675 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Parson View Post

I expect Wingly is legal but jumping into a light aircraft with someone I don't know and whose qualifications/experience I know nothing of isn't something I make a habit of. The closest I have come is a club flyout where I'm thinking at least this guy/gal is a club member and therefore a relatively 'known' quantity. I did once run through the 'what if I have to take control here' scenario in my mind though.
Exactly, it is wrong in so many ways..there is no mechanism for the users or wingly to discriminate the bad reckless pilots from the good ones. A lot of ppl under pressure to fly are ticking bombs.

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Old 27th Jan 2019, 11:55
  #676 (permalink)  
 
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piperboy84 A quick Gramet check before departure would have given him some ideas, but without a PIREP it would remain the computer's best guess.

Total speculation, but it could be he was slow in noticing ice accretion (at night with AP engaged he'd have fewer visual clues and not feel anything untoward), and couldn't get down quickly enough to warmer climes. Not much fun, but if he'd been able to maintain 1500' over the water any ice would melt and there are no mountains to hit... Not discussing the legalities, just the practicalities.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 12:13
  #677 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by red9 View Post
I am not sure how much has changed - I suspect very little.
This accident has brought this illegal flying to the forefront - will anything change ? - Probably not - there is no oversight
I think you are wrong. This elephant, or as somebody said nicely better some posts ago: mammoth for its age of knowledge, is being targeted by task forces now. There is an agreement between FAA and EASA to ramp checks on N-reg by the usual EASA personnel. My bet we widely will see checks on N-reg this year, already and unrelated to this accident.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 12:25
  #678 (permalink)  
 
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Formality , Crash investigation.

I have followed this accident with some interest and have a few questions to pilots here with proper knowledge of GA.

1 Who is conducting the Investigation ( UK or France)?
2 Will NTSB be involved as it was a N- registered AC?
3 What is the likely reaction from FAA, if any?
4 In the case of it being a UK matter , what is the likely CAA reaction or recommendation?
5 What would be France involvement and possible action?
6 What is the chance of the responsible people being taken to criminal court?

For those of You who are not familiar with me and my postings, here is a heads up!
I say it as I see it, and I have been in the industry for 30 years.
I resent that there is private pilots in Europe doing professional work like this!
It is dangerous, as proven here, and takes work away from young commercial pilots.
I particularly hate seeing innocent people die due to other peoples greed and incompetence!!

I am familiar with aircraft investigation ,and have been involved I all levels of Instructing.
I have experience with instructing in Canada, Norway, Europe and under the FAA system.
So, It intrigues me that this kind of stuff is allowed to go on.
I do believe that this would not be tolerated in the US by the FAA ,and in Canada by the MOT, correct me if I am wrong. It has been some time since I was in Canada.

The fact that UK CAA lets this go on does not surprise me one bit, as my experience and observation of them can be summed up in one word: Disappointing!

The Regulations and Legal limits here are obviously complicated, this is why I ask some rather basic questions.
The operational limits are in hindsight broken on just about every level, I would think.

I hope this high profile accident can end with the UK CAA and EASA getting the boots on the ground and finally do the Duty assigned them!

Regards
Cpt B
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 12:43
  #679 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sillert,V.I. View Post
I know there are many here who believe a flight of this nature should never have taken place in a piston single at night.

That said, the aircraft type was designed for this type of mission when flown IFR by a suitably qualified and licenced pilot.

If this flight had been planned using this aircraft, but IFR using the airways at a sensible flight level, it would almost certainly have ended uneventfully.

How difficult would it have been in practice to have found a suitably qualified CPL/IR to captain this flight?
Or maybe they did have one, Dave Henderson, who took one look at the weather and said, "Sorry fellas, no chance," and they had the backup fly him instead (because he was willing, being an enterprising "semi-commercial" pilot).

The way this played out had everything to do with how it was set up. A charter (commercially-operated) flight is NOT the same as a privately-operated flight, just with a better qualified pilot. There are takeoff requirements, destination weather requirements, etc. Let's say icing was reported. In a non-FIKI aircraft, you can't then fly. All sorts of stuff.

As I said earlier, there's a reason why there's more training involved. And it's ultimately to protect passengers.

What baffles me is that people (agents) handle their product so carelessly. If I had a £15,000,000 asset, I don't care if it was £15,000,000 worth of horse dung, I would make sure it was cared for properly. And that does not involve putting it on a plane with an unqualified crew.

I guess I'd make a pretty good agent. And what do these agents give a crap for what the flight costs anyway? These clients have money. Are they friggin' pocketing the difference or what? The whole thing makes so little sense.
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Old 27th Jan 2019, 12:51
  #680 (permalink)  
 
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BluSdUp,


The answers to some of your questions are covered by a recent UK AAIB statement:-

In accordance with international protocols, the AAIB is investigating the loss of the aircraft. Since Tuesday morning, we have been working closely with international authorities including the US National Transportation Safety Board, the Bureau d’Enquêtes & d’Analyses (BEA) in France and the Junta de Investigación de Accidentes de Aviación Civil (JIACC) in Argentina.
See link:-

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a...ircraft-n264db
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