Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

[meleagertoo]

Even leaving Wingly aside is it just me or is it beginning to look as though there is a whole, widespread and extensive industry going on in the UK flying illegal charters on N reg (and possibly others) aircraft to the severe detriment of bona-fide AOC operators and the CAA is just sitting there fat, dumb and happy and doing sweet fanny adams about it?
Just how big is this particular elephant in our room?

[BigEndBob]

Never realised how that Wingly thing operated, but seeing that link above, the whole concept should be shut down.
And to think of the discussions there have been and fuss about what a trial flight might be.

Also how would insurance get on with the crash flight, are Cardiff city now £15m out of pocket, could cause the club to close.
This could be one of the most complex insurance and big payouts ever for one crash.
What if the players family go for all and sundry.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Originally Posted by meleagertoo

Even leaving Wingly aside is it just me or is it beginning to look as though there is a whole, widespread and extensive industry going on in the UK flying illegal charters on N reg (and possibly others) aircraft to the severe detriment of bona-fide AOC operators and the CAA is just sitting there fat, dumb and happy and doing sweet fanny adams about it?
Just how big is this particular elephant in our room?

Has always been so, and in the rotary sector you'll probably find the worst offenders, one of whom cheerfully posts about it on the Rotor Heads forum. In terms of pachyderm size we're roughly at woolly mammoth, and around the same age.

SND

[TRUTHSEEKER1]

The Cessna 421B is G-BBUJ which was damaged at Portimao before August 2000. It still sits there at Portimao

[runway30]

Originally Posted by BigEndBob

Never realised how that Wingly thing operated, but seeing that link above, the whole concept should be shut down.
And to think of the discussions there have been and fuss about what a trial flight might be.

Also how would insurance get on with the crash flight, are Cardiff city now £15m out of pocket, could cause the club to close.
This could be one of the most complex insurance and big payouts ever for one crash.
What if the players family go for all and sundry.

As I posted earlier, the club are saying that they will be about £14m. out of pocket even after insurance and are obviously looking for someone to take legal action against.

I looked at the standard Lloyd’s Accident Policy.

Hazardous Occupations, Sports, Pastimes or Activities
If you engage in any active occupation, sport or pastime or other activity which has a hazardous nature you should disclose it to us. If you are in any doubt as to what constitutes hazardous and if you are covered for such activity please contact your broker.

What is not covered (applicable to Sections one and two)
This contract of insurance does not cover claims in any way caused or contributed to by:
1. war, whether war be declared or not, hostilities or any act of war or civil war;
2. the actual or threatened malicious use of pathogenic or poisonous biological or chemical materials;
3. nuclear reaction, nuclear radiation or radioactive contamination;
4. your engaging in or taking part in armed forces service or operations;
5. your engaging in flying of any kind other than as a passenger;

So it will depend on an interpretation of Hazardous Occupations and whether they still consider you a passenger on a flight that is unlicensed.

[red9]

Originally Posted by meleagertoo

Even leaving Wingly aside is it just me or is it beginning to look as though there is a whole, widespread and extensive industry going on in the UK flying illegal charters on N reg (and possibly others) aircraft to the severe detriment of bona-fide AOC operators and the CAA is just sitting there fat, dumb and happy and doing sweet fanny adams about it?
Just how big is this particular elephant in our room?

Yes - I think that about sums it up

[meleagertoo]

Originally Posted by CBSITCB

Interesting that it was indeed G-reg - makes the lack of accident reports more intriguing.

I could point you to a G reg airline accident involving a nosegear-less landing with pax on a scheduled international service.
Or rather, I couldn't, as no accident report was filed.
Well, one was, but it wasn't a paper one (the airline never troubled to pass that on to the CAA.)
And the result?
Nada. Zip. Nothing. And no official record of the event.

In terms of enforcement the CAA are a sleepy poodle with chocolate teeth and rubber balls.
I doubt that has changed in the not too many years since that occurred.

[Daysleeper]

Originally Posted by BigEndBob

Never realised how that Wingly thing operated, but seeing that link above, the whole concept should be shut down.
And to think of the discussions there have been and fuss about what a trial flight might be.

Also how would insurance get on with the crash flight, are Cardiff city now £15m out of pocket, could cause the club to close.
This could be one of the most complex insurance and big payouts ever for one crash.
What if the players family go for all and sundry.

Was mentioned earlier but according to the Telegraph Cardiff's liabilities associated with the transfer are more like £30 Million including £2.5 million in fees to agents. They believe half (well 16 mil) is covered by the previously mentioned lloyds policy though I'd be fascinated to know what the definition of "passenger" is on that policy.

Edit Runway30 beat me to it... do you have any more detail on "passenger"?

[ChickenHouse]

Originally Posted by meleagertoo

Even leaving Wingly aside is it just me or is it beginning to look as though there is a whole, widespread and extensive industry going on in the UK flying illegal charters on N reg (and possibly others) aircraft to the severe detriment of bona-fide AOC operators and the CAA is just sitting there fat, dumb and happy and doing sweet fanny adams about it?
Just how big is this particular elephant in our room?

That, is a big elephant and it is being discussed for years now.
In contrast to FAAs strict 'Don't even think policy', Europe has always been attracted by ideas of private 'special networks' and kept that not confined to Sicily. I doubt that'll change anytime soon. Just to throw some petrol to the campfire, Brexit could give the opportunity for CAA to adopt a more FAA-like approach ...

[runway30]

Daysleeper, I can’t find it defined anywhere but I’m sure that a Lloyd’s broker could tell us.

[Timmy Tomkins]

Originally Posted by Suvarnabhumi

Wow, GA in the UK has changed immeasurably with "Globalisation" since I was last involved there 22 years ago.

So all I have to do now is pop over to Florida and buy a thrashed out "complex single" eg a 1984 Malibu, own it through some offshore company trust type setup, keep it on on N reg, get my FAA PPL while I'm there, make some connections in UK with "Fixer/Agent" types/wealthy circles , and I'm good to go, International "charters", sorry , I mean doing a mate a favour/cost sharing , including overwater, night , winter, single engine flights. I'll be quids in.

CAA have really dropped the ball.

My thoughts exactly. I was an air taxi pilot in the 1980s before going into the airlines and I never heard of anything like this. We were a 2 aircraft operation and had our own ops inspector (subsequently a very senior person in the CAA and very professional) could cost cutting have anything to do with the hands off approach now?

[meleagertoo]

Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins

My thoughts exactly. I was an air taxi pilot in the 1980s before going into the airlines and I never heard of anything like this.

Much the same as me. I knew this sort of thing happened too but had no idea it was so apparently widespread

[runway30]

I don’t know whether Cool Flourish Ltd. owned this aircraft or not because I can’t find the database in the US that others have quoted. However two Chartered Accountants acquiring 2 £1 shares from other nominees leads to the suspicion that they are themselves nominees and are just another layer obscuring the ownership of this company. Is this really the lack of transparency that we want in air transport? Uncovering the ownership of the aircraft would probably give more answers as to what has gone on here. Maybe when we get into charges/financial claims, someone will start talking?

[3wheels]

Originally Posted by meleagertoo

Even leaving Wingly aside is it just me or is it beginning to look as though there is a whole, widespread and extensive industry going on in the UK flying illegal charters on N reg (and possibly others) aircraft to the severe detriment of bona-fide AOC operators and the CAA is just sitting there fat, dumb and happy and doing sweet fanny adams about it?
Just how big is this particular elephant in our room?

Normalised Deviation. I don’t think there has ever been such a good example.

[CBSITCB]

Regarding the 'transcript' in post #524

Originally Posted by diffident

Doesn't really reveal anything new any of that lot to be fair, other than Emiliano Sala being able to command a great level of writing English considering he's from South America and played his football in France. I haven't heard any full interviews with him in the British media so he may have a great standard of English, but he only spoke Portuguese on the released tape recording from the night. I might be looking at it too deeply and being too suspicious, but something doesn't seem right to me.

I wonder what is the source of the transcript? It doesn’t have the appearance of a character-for-character copy from some sort of communication device (even if subsequently tidied-up).

Could it just be an after-the-fact subjective summary of the conversations? It does seem to have very good grammar and punctuation and be a bit ‘wordy’ for a series of text messages.

It just popped-up on Sky News four days after the event as “Text messages released between Sala and Jack McKay”. Released by whom - does anyone know?

[Chronus]

The remarkable feature of this accident is the fact that a high value soccer player was being transported in a single engine aircraft, at night over water, by a 59 year old wannabe pilot plumber.
I do wonder in making the arrangements for the flight as to what sort of representations were made regarding the owner, operator and pilot. Whichever way you look at the picture, it is grim for all who have been involved. Some very serious legal consequences are inevitable.

[runway30]

Originally Posted by CBSITCB

Regarding the 'transcript' in post #524



I wonder what is the source of the transcript? It doesn’t have the appearance of a character-for-character copy from some sort of communication device (even if subsequently tidied-up).

Could it just be an after-the-fact subjective summary of the conversations? It does seem to have very good grammar and punctuation and be a bit ‘wordy’ for a series of text messages.

It just popped-up on Sky News four days after the event as “Text messages released between Sala and Jack McKay”. Released by whom - does anyone know?

It has been released by the McKays as part of the ‘Nothing to do with me’ campaign. It has clearly been edited/part redacted.

[HarryMann]

Originally Posted by CBSITCB

Regarding the 'transcript' in post #524



I wonder what is the source of the transcript? It doesn’t have the appearance of a character-for-character copy from some sort of communication device (even if subsequently tidied-up).

Could it just be an after-the-fact subjective summary of the conversations? It does seem to have very good grammar and punctuation and be a bit ‘wordy’ for a series of text messages.

It just popped-up on Sky News four days after the event as “Text messages released between Sala and Jack McKay”. Released by whom - does anyone know?

Looks very typical to me.... and very credible too. Not sure how brief you get but much less and as we so often find, the content can be misconstrued or needs another text to clarify! Then there's the good manners aspect of not being rudely too brief.
No I doubt a journo wouldn't want to say exactly how they came across it though. But I'd put a fiver on it being pretty near the mark.

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by TRUTHSEEKER1

The Cessna 421B is G-BBUJ which was damaged at Portimao before August 2000. It still sits there at Portimao

Presumably that's the incident referred to in the company report (although that states that it happened in FY2001/02).

It sounds like the aircraft never returned to the UK - it was cancelled from the UK register in September 2007 as "transferred to Portugal" and restored in June 2011, now owned by Portimao-based Aero VIP.

Its status has been "No flight" since June 2015, suggesting that it was flying prior to that.

[helimutt]

Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia

Has always been so, and in the rotary sector you'll probably find the worst offenders, one of whom cheerfully posts about it on the Rotor Heads forum. In terms of pachyderm size we're roughly at woolly mammoth, and around the same age.

SND

ie the elephant wouldn't fit into a room!!!!! And I know who you mean on Rotorheads....