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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 26th Jan 2019, 00:47
  #521 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Luc Lion View Post
If the pilot is FAA PPL (private pilot licence) with an FAA IR, it could still be legal (but on the edge) if the pilot is not paid and if the flight is organised by him and the footballers.

Some participation to the flight cost by the passengers is even possible in this configuration.
Not under US law it isn't. As a PPL holder you have to have a purpose for making that flight other than to give someone a ride from point A to point B. You as the pilot have to have your own reason for making that flight for it to be legal. If D. Ibottson did not have his own independent reason for flying from Nance to Cardiff that day, this flight was not legal. AND you have to pay your pro-rats share of the costs.

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Old 26th Jan 2019, 01:51
  #522 (permalink)  
 
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This story gets murkier by the day.

I wonder if the passenger was aware of the pilots skills or lack of them.

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Old 26th Jan 2019, 02:44
  #523 (permalink)  
 
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Wow, GA in the UK has changed immeasurably with "Globalisation" since I was last involved there 22 years ago.

So all I have to do now is pop over to Florida and buy a thrashed out "complex single" eg a 1984 Malibu, own it through some offshore company trust type setup, keep it on on N reg, get my FAA PPL while I'm there, make some connections in UK with "Fixer/Agent" types/wealthy circles , and I'm good to go, International "charters", sorry , I mean doing a mate a favour/cost sharing , including overwater, night , winter, single engine flights. I'll be quids in.

CAA have really dropped the ball.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 04:41
  #524 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia View Post
If you see it going on please report it. The CAA (rotary) are bursting to get one, especially in a congested area. I know of two schools who have banned customers for doing Thames sightseeing flights in R44's after I called them about it. The well known website will not take rotary now due to insurance (they can't get any) but they're abundant on FaceBook and many other platforms.

SND
SND - If CAA rotary are bursting to get one then it really begs a number of questions. Ops inspectors may be bold in front of you during an audit, telling you how terrible all this is BUT they are less bold in front of their own back at Gatwick. If the practice was so awful why not make a strong case internally and get it stopped? Assuming the individuals have credibility at CAA is that not the natural extension of what he expresses to you during an audit? Next I don't really think they are looking very hard for flights that are advertised which suggest some breaking of the rules may take place. I say may because it would require someone in a car to go and look. Do nothing more sophisticated and look at a well known experience website, say Virgin, and find under the title of Flying Lessons.a 5 or 15 minute "buzz flight" some in multi seat aircraft where the participant would be sat in the back. Which begs the question just how on earth these have any relevance to a lesson or conducted by FI(H)? But don't ask me ask the CAA and how they are tackling.

All that said perhaps the evidence just isn't so compelling and recent history does not show dozens of buzz flights getting into trouble or cost sharing flights doomed. Perhaps sometimes people make poor decisions and if we look at the recent rotary fatalities ll were in very sophisticated aircraft flown by very experienced pilots including every rotary wing accident in congested areas within memory.

It isn't that I do not think you have a point, actually I think you do but the CAA are not exactly covering themselves in glory and that includes the way some are operating these sophisticated aircraft that only becomes apparent when it ends in a smoking hole. Resource, or lack of, has been the excuse of years and at some point you can't keep riding that horse.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 05:30
  #525 (permalink)  
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As ever in this murky tale, more questions than answers. Where’s the transcript from btw Rway 30?

It seems that the ‘ten hour delay’ is a complete red herring. Sala wanted to get back at 9 pm but agreed to 7:30 so the ‘pilot could get home’! Already smacks of a professional outfit doesn’t it? A night return was planned from the outset apparently. I wonder how big the pile of luggage was? How it was stowed?

As for ‘Emiliano was not asked to pay for the flight’. Are we supposed to accept that DH and DI do this out of the kindness of their hearts?

And I doubt Sala’s native language is Portuguese. He’s Argentinian not Brazilian.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 06:10
  #526 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
In a statement, McKay said: "In regards to the booking of the flight, we contacted David Henderson who has flown us and many of our players all over Europe on countless occasions.

"We had no involvement in selecting a plane or a pilot and wish to make clear we do not own the plane that Emiliano flew on. As the text messages show: Emiliano was not asked for payment for the flight.
Oh Dear,Looks like a bad case of BSE = Blame Somebody Else.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 06:38
  #527 (permalink)  
 
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Somebody was paying. Seems unlikely this plane was being operated just so the pilots could build hours!
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 06:42
  #528 (permalink)  
 
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I've been knocking round GA for over 20 years now and this 'Wingly' thing doesn't sit right with me. (I'm not making any assumptions about whether this incident falls under Wingly nor am I assuming that the pilot was anything less than qualified and competent).

I expect Wingly is legal but jumping into a light aircraft with someone I don't know and whose qualifications/experience I know nothing of isn't something I make a habit of. The closest I have come is a club flyout where I'm thinking at least this guy/gal is a club member and therefore a relatively 'known' quantity. I did once run through the 'what if I have to take control here' scenario in my mind though.

I have had 'bad vibes' since I first heard of Wingly. Just because something is legal doesnt always mean its a good idea to do it. The people 'promoting' Wingly at a recent aviation event I attended didn't do anything to alay my concerns.

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Old 26th Jan 2019, 06:47
  #529 (permalink)  
 
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There are some pilots dropping paras for fun and free to get the hours, but I somehow am cautious to suspect such for the constellation reported. A 10 hours delay due to some mood swings sound plausible and possible, but who can confirm? A filed flight plan for the morning carrying DH name and cancelled or delayed to the evening would not surprise me.

The Wingly thingie is indeed something 'digital new', but good? I doubt. Even after EASA confirmed the hole in the bucket and some insurance issued covers (any case known to prove they also pay after getting the money?) it does not feel good. At our home field they altered policy and explicitly banned such flights. *altered* I just briefly entered Wingly, things like a 60TT/20 oT pilot in a Mooney M20 or night flying with a 70TT pilot both taking passengers make me shiver. These guys are still full of license euphoria and empty of airmen wisdom.

Last edited by ChickenHouse; 26th Jan 2019 at 07:17.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 07:35
  #530 (permalink)  
 
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Watching, nothing more to contribute at the moment, but wanted to plus one this very succinct and accurate quote, which imho opinion goes well beyond this incident.

These guys are still full of license euphoria and empty of airmen wisdom.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 07:37
  #531 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arkroyal View Post
As ever in this murky tale, more questions than answers. Where’s the transcript from btw Rway 30?
I wondered that too, it's a bit daft posting something like that without identifying/crediting the source.

It appears to have come from here: Mirror: Emiliano Sala's final text messages with agent reveal flight confusion
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 07:42
  #532 (permalink)  
 
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I do not think I have ever seen a definition of hire and reward in respect of UK pilots. In respect of aerial work such as banner towing, glider towing, parachute dropping and instructing whether a PPL, BCPL, CPL, ATPL holder, what is hire, what is reward. Hire would imply some formal arrangement with a verbal or written contract, which simply could be an email. Advertising services through social media or contacts could further imply hire. As for reward, if someone who flies part time and costs incurred for travel, hotac, renewels amount to £4000 p/a and income is £3999 p/a, then there is a loss of £1, so can it be argued that there was no financial reward. Again the problem here is, a district judge might consider a long weekend stopover in say Cannes with hotac, food and expenses provided is reward, when compared with the fact the pilot otherwise would have spent a wet weekend in Grimsby.

The problem here is that a definition of hire and reward is very subjective is that a district judge or circuit judge in a court (England and Wales) will work on the balance of probability, meaning they will take a guess on what is hire and reward and likely to take the UK CAA position given in court. The other thing that those operating with the correct licences and ratings, risk losing their assets (home, savings, etc.), or those of their survivors, in full. Again some might think they could protect as a limited company, yet that would imply there was a commercial arrangement in place. Personally, I see it as madness the risk your assets for borderline aerial activities.

The bottom line to this is I am doubtful if there is a definition of hire and reward under the ANO, and there will never be, until the matter becomes case law in the High Court, Appeal Court or Supreme Court.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 07:48
  #533 (permalink)  
 
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Agent

Didnt the football agent have a King Air operated by another CAA known company, grounded in Lincolnshire due to a dodgy repair?
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 07:53
  #534 (permalink)  
 
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[Information from Companies House filings.]

Cool Flourish Limited was incorporated in February 1998 and dormant until December 1999 when it acquires a Golden Eagle for use in an “aircraft hire business”. The aircraft is written-off in an accident sometime in or around 2001.

I couldn’t find a Golden Eagle accident that appears to match the circumstances in the AAIB, NTSB, or ASN records. Perhaps registered in some other jurisdiction?

Insurance claim settled sometime between February 2007 and February 2008 – some six or seven years later.

All a bit odd. Another jigsaw piece, and certainly relevant to the discussion as it indicates the company that owns the missing PA46 was on the face of it set-up to run an aircraft hire business.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 08:04
  #535 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CBSITCB View Post
Cool Flourish Limited was incorporated in February 1998 and dormant until December 1999 when it acquires a Golden Eagle for use in an “aircraft hire business”. The aircraft is written-off in an accident sometime in or around 2001. I couldn’t find a Golden Eagle accident that appears to match the circumstances in the AAIB, NTSB, or ASN records.
Yes, as I said in my earlier post:

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
The accident/incident involving the C421 occurred much earlier than that - between March 2001 and February 2002, according to the note in that year's accounts - and it "curtailed aviation activities" of the company.

Whatever it was that happened, it doesn't seem to have attracted the attention of the AAIB or the CAA.
There don't seem to have been many recorded sightings of the C421 - presumably it was a hangar queen for several years while the insurance settlement was being negotiated.

Originally Posted by CBSITCB View Post
Perhaps registered in some other jurisdiction?
No, it was on the UK register, as was the company's later PA-32.

Incidentally, the Golden Eagle wasn't "written off" - it's still G-registered with a new owner, albeit based in Portugal.

Last edited by DaveReidUK; 26th Jan 2019 at 08:16.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 08:16
  #536 (permalink)  
 
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However I won't be at all surprised if it turns out that the aircraft had been hired and the pilot was volunteering -- flying for fun, as at any gliding club with a tug or at a jump club. Perfectly legal.
To carry out these activities one has to be member of the gliding club or para club that is being operated for. I suppose this could be the case for wingly flights (i.e. set up a club). Wingly is just nuts. If I hire a car and a driver he has to meet higher standards than if I self hire.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 08:17
  #537 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by anchorhold View Post
I do not think I have ever seen a definition of hire and reward in respect of UK pilots. In respect of aerial work such as banner towing, glider towing, parachute dropping and instructing whether a PPL, BCPL, CPL, ATPL holder, what is hire, what is reward. Hire would imply some formal arrangement with a verbal or written contract, which simply could be an email. Advertising services through social media or contacts could further imply hire. As for reward, if someone who flies part time and costs incurred for travel, hotac, renewels amount to £4000 p/a and income is £3999 p/a, then there is a loss of £1, so can it be argued that there was no financial reward. Again the problem here is, a district judge might consider a long weekend stopover in say Cannes with hotac, food and expenses provided is reward, when compared with the fact the pilot otherwise would have spent a wet weekend in Grimsby.

The problem here is that a definition of hire and reward is very subjective is that a district judge or circuit judge in a court (England and Wales) will work on the balance of probability, meaning they will take a guess on what is hire and reward and likely to take the UK CAA position given in court. The other thing that those operating with the correct licences and ratings, risk losing their assets (home, savings, etc.), or those of their survivors, in full. Again some might think they could protect as a limited company, yet that would imply there was a commercial arrangement in place. Personally, I see it as madness the risk your assets for borderline aerial activities.

The bottom line to this is I am doubtful if there is a definition of hire and reward under the ANO, and there will never be, until the matter becomes case law in the High Court, Appeal Court or Supreme Court.
And a wet weekend in Grimsby would be more than reward enough, surely???
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 08:18
  #538 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
Yes, as I said in my earlier post
Agreed - I was just supplementing your post with some additional detail. Interesting that it was indeed G-reg - makes the lack of accident reports more intriguing.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 08:22
  #539 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CBSITCB View Post
[Information from Companies House filings.]

Cool Flourish Limited was incorporated in February 1998 and dormant until December 1999 when it acquires a Golden Eagle for use in an “aircraft hire business”. The aircraft is written-off in an accident sometime in or around 2001.

I couldn’t find a Golden Eagle accident that appears to match the circumstances in the AAIB, NTSB, or ASN records. Perhaps registered in some other jurisdiction?

Insurance claim settled sometime between February 2007 and February 2008 – some six or seven years later.

All a bit odd. Another jigsaw piece, and certainly relevant to the discussion as it indicates the company that owns the missing PA46 was on the face of it set-up to run an aircraft hire business.
A little research throws this one up. 363s Annual Return dated 19th January 2000 - under the section "Principal Business Activities" has a hand-written note: "Non scheduled air transport and business & management consultancy." Reading it you can see that "Non-scheduled air transport" from that date is in addition to the other "business activities" of Cool Flourish.
Surely if a "business activity" then "non-scheduled air transport" requires income of some sort. It's not a charity.
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Old 26th Jan 2019, 08:28
  #540 (permalink)  
 
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I notice the REACH website does not mention FAA approval. It does say that they can support Isle of Man and FAA registered aircraft.
This presumably means that just call in a freelance A & P mechanic or IA (Inspection Authorisation) guy as required.
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