Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:52
  #441 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: London
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


Pitts, absolutely agree that the public would use words in common use which could lead to confusion. I have tried very hard not to condemn the pilot because I am worried that the pilot will end up taking all the blame for this and whatever mistakes he has made that will not be fair. However I still believe that the flight sharing scenario is the most unlikely because why would a man, maybe struggling to pay the bills, take several days out of his life to go and sit in an airport hotel whilst subsidising a very wealthy footballer?
It remains plausible that this was done for no reward. As a PPL, doing Part TIme dropzone work when any was available **if any was available** (I am aware that a few dropzones had taken on different pilots so I dont know if he was still active..) he could essentially get free hour building time by doing trips such as this.
The fact that he had no IR is clearly a seperate legal issue altgother and in all honesty the dots all seem to line up as a dodgy charter gone horribly wrong.
patagonia1 is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 15:52
  #442 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,085
Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


Pitts, absolutely agree that the public would use words in common use which could lead to confusion. I have tried very hard not to condemn the pilot because I am worried that the pilot will end up taking all the blame for this and whatever mistakes he has made that will not be fair. However I still believe that the flight sharing scenario is the most unlikely because why would a man, maybe struggling to pay the bills, take several days out of his life to go and sit in an airport hotel whilst subsidising a very wealthy footballer?
Hi - Of course I'm playing devils advocate and I think we are in total agreement actually but to answer your point I can think of 3 reasons straight away. Maybe he just likes flying? Maybe he wanted to do something - no matter how odd - in that area (a girlfriend/hooker - who knows?) Maybe he is the worlds biggest fan of the footballer in the aircraft?
Pittsextra is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:00
  #443 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 309
The PA46 of the accident at hand was not fit for AOC operation (engine is not a turbine).
FYI - You can have a piston single on an AOC.
Good Business Sense is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:09
  #444 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: UK
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by Good Business Sense View Post
FYI - You can have a piston single on an AOC.
But only VFR.
Slowclimb is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:14
  #445 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 5
Originally Posted by vintage ATCO View Post
Hardly. I was plugged in on Luton Radar that evening when the phone line from Heathrow rang to ask if I was working N6645Y, it had disappeared off radar. We had been in the clear but later went out in fog. The last visibility Hill was given for Elstree was 800m with no instrument let down #gethomeitis. There were three fatal accidents that night.

Hill’s FAA IR had lapsed, so had his UK IMC rating; his UK PPL was still valid. The aeroplane’s US registration had been cancelled three years previously; it was unregistered and stateless.

Needless loss of life as will be this case.

One of them at Birmingham Airport..all others had diverted to EMA.. 3 killed..Pilot had heart probs and safety pilot was from the club.....
BRIEFING OFFICER is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:16
  #446 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: In the shed
Age: 73
Posts: 63
Maintenance

No one on the thread has mentioned aircraft maintenance. Does anyone know who holds the maintenance records for the accident aircraft? Was the a/c signed off as serviceable before the accident flight? At Gamston, perhaps?
captainspeaking is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:22
  #447 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: The World
Posts: 1,222
Originally Posted by Good Business Sense View Post
FYI - You can have a piston single on an AOC.
For VFR-Day-only, No IFR, No Night, to be precise.
ChickenHouse is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:26
  #448 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vance, Belgium
Age: 57
Posts: 164
@Eutychus,

back to your account of 2 flights in small piston engine to and from Jersey : you can only consider that you are transported by professional people if the aircraft operator holds an AOC.
The list of AOC holders in Jersey and Guernsey is here (page 32) : https://cidca.aero/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=115363&p=0
Under some conditions, air taxi UK AOC holders can also operate from the Channel Islands. The list is here: https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-ind...-Certificates/

Until recently (and but for a handful exceptions), air transport in IMC could only be performed with twin engine aircrafts.
See, for instance, the Beechcraft BE-90 for low profile operation,
Since 1 March 2017, EASA has issued a regulation that authorises IMC operation with single engine turbine aircraft (example: Cessna Caravan, Socata TBM, Pilatus PC12).
So you could come across AOC holders operating single engine turbine aircraft.
Luc Lion is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:29
  #449 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 76
Originally Posted by captainspeaking View Post
No one on the thread has mentioned aircraft maintenance. Does anyone know who holds the maintenance records for the accident aircraft? Was the a/c signed off as serviceable before the accident flight? At Gamston, perhaps?
Probably Reach Aerospace, Paul Kinch, at Gamston

Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
For VFR-Day-only, No IFR, No Night, to be precise.
It's patently obvious this N-Registered aircraft was not a Part-135 charter operation
Winniebago is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:31
  #450 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 309
Smile

Originally Posted by Slowclimb View Post
But only VFR.
Goes without saying ! Comment is correct
Good Business Sense is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:34
  #451 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: UK
Age: 55
Posts: 15
Is it known how Sala got to Cardiff for his signing on?
Redlands is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:35
  #452 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by Winniebago View Post
It's patently obvious this N-Registered aircraft was not a Part-135 charter operation
Can't be unless given Seventh freedom rights by the UK and French governments - i Believe.
Good Business Sense is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:37
  #453 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vance, Belgium
Age: 57
Posts: 164
Originally Posted by Good Business Sense View Post
FYI - You can have a piston single on an AOC.
I was writing to Eutychus, which is not a pilot.
You know that AOC with a SEP is restricted to day VFR.
Luc Lion is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:37
  #454 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 309
Thumbs up

Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
For VFR-Day-only, No IFR, No Night, to be precise.
Comment accurate in response to the comment made
Good Business Sense is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:42
  #455 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
For VFR-Day-only, No IFR, No Night, to be precise.
.... to be precise ........ you CAN fly a piston single IFR on an AOC ..... just not on a commercial flight ....... 30-15 :-)
Good Business Sense is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:43
  #456 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Dunstable, Beds UK
Posts: 543
Minimum sign off would require an FAA A and P Mechanic sign off.. Higher maintenance such as an Annual would require an FAA I.A. ( inspection Authorisation) or an FAA Certificated Repair station. I would imagine that the log book entries would make interesting reading.
GotTheTshirt is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:51
  #457 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Hinckley
Age: 56
Posts: 46
Has the actual beneficial owner of the aircraft been verified anywhere? US databases show this Ms Fay Keely at a company called Cool Flourish Ltd, but that hasn't been acknowladged anywhere else so far? Photographs of it in a Gamston hangar, but no verification that this is where it lived most of the time - i.e. it's home base.
sellbydate is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:53
  #458 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by Luc Lion View Post
I was writing to Eutychus, which is not a pilot.
You know that AOC with a SEP is restricted to day VFR.
Hi Luc Lion, I get what you're trying to say but your comment is incorrect
The PA46 of the accident at hand was not fit for AOC operation (engine is not a turbine).
Rgds
Good Business Sense is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 16:56
  #459 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Usually firmly on the ground
Posts: 62
shy torque Thanks, very helpful.

Originally Posted by ChickenHouse View Post
Besides from the 'CPL needed?' part, his FAA PPL license may have been ok for the VFR-Day trip.
Excuse my ignorance. Again. Is the CPL requirement conditional on remuneration irrespective of flying conditions (which is what I've understood so far), or are you saying a PPL could suffice for a flight with a paying passenger if it was VFR-Day?

Luc Lion thanks again. A similar question about aircraft type. What about SEP in daytime VFR conditions?

(Armed with some of the info learned here I have established that the Cherokee I flew on is owned by a company that does not appear to hold an AOC, at least not at the time of posting).

(According to the document Luc Lion linked to, " At present the Jersey Aircraft Registry does not permit commercial air transport or aerial work" (!) so AOCs have to be obtained from the UK or... Guernsey!!).

[cross-post]
Eutychus is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 17:14
  #460 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Vance, Belgium
Age: 57
Posts: 164
@Eutychus,
PPL means that the pilot may not earn money for the flight and that he may not fly in the context of a commercial operation (ie: the service, transport or aerial work, may not be sold).
Of course there are some exceptions, but they don't play a role here.
A CPL (commercial pilot) may be paid and hired for a commercial operation.

SEP = single engine piston
SET = single engine turbine (turbopropellor or jet)
MEP = multi-engines piston
VFR = visual flight rules (only flights in visual meteorological conditions, day or night, are approved. A special qualification is required for night-VFR)
IFR = instrument flight rule (flight in day or night visual meteorological conditions or in instrument meteorological conditions. An instrument rating IR qualification is required)
IMC = instrument meteorological conditions (you can't see outside or the outside references are below some minima)

For AOC in Jersey/Guernsey, the 2 islands have a common aeronautical administration.
They happen to have put all AOC on the Guernsey registry.

For your account of your 2 flights to and from Jersey, there are only 3 "legal" possibilities:
- your business relation rented 2 charters flights from an official air-taxi company (AOC holder). The chance that such a company operates a single piston engine aircraft are very close to zero.
- your business relation organised a private flight by renting a small aircraft on a dry lease and hiring a commercial pilot separately.
- the pilot was your business relation, his associate or one of his close friend and this pilot organised the flight by himself.
In the third case, before the flight, the pilot could have asked you if you agree to share the direct cost of the flight.
In the second case, your business relation is not allowed to ask you to pay anything.
I am afraid that anything else (and matching your account) is illegal.

Last edited by Luc Lion; 25th Jan 2019 at 17:33.
Luc Lion is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.