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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:00
  #421 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
What investigation took place about the twin crashing on route to Chalgrove?
This was the subject of an AAIB Field Investigation.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ATMT_10-17.pdf

Basically descent below MSA in IMC whilst not following a published approach procedure.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:10
  #422 (permalink)  
 
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Hello!

Many of the answers we don't know yet, therefore much is based on assumption (e.g. from watching others perform similar flights) and "half-information" from the internet and newspapers.

Originally Posted by Eutychus View Post
Aggh, I thought I was just getting a handle on all this... which part of this is "simpy illegal"?

1. Improper certification for an N-reg aicraft?
2. No AOC?
3. No CPL?
4. IFR as opposed to VFR?
5. Payment for services rendered?
6. EU airspace?
...?
1. We don't know anything for sure about that.

2. Obviously not. Any type of commercial flying would therefore have been illegal. Even with an (American) AOC, a commercial flight between European countries carrying European passengers would have required a heap of paperwork ("cabotage").
And even with an AOC, this kind of aircraft (single engine piston) would only have been allowed to do flights under visual flight rules (VFR). And even a single engine turbine (SET) aircraft operating legally under an AOC and carrying passengers would have had to observe minimum distances from alternate enroute airfields (to enable an engine-out gliding landing) which at their intended cruising altitude of 5000ft over the sea would not have been met. (This is a Europen regulation for SET commercial operation.)

3. If he was paid in any way for his flying he would have needed a CPL. But we do not know if he received imuneration. If he flew out of courtesy for his buddy who himself borrowed the plane to his soccer player buddy for gas money only then he would not have needed a CPL.

4. On a private flight it would not have mattered as long as the pilot and the aircraft hold the necessary qualification. Commercially it would not have been possible to do this under IFR (see point 2).

5. We don't know yet. But any penny changing hands that exceeds cost sharing would have made the whole thing illegal.

6. EU airspace has nothing do do with it I think.

Regards
Max
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:17
  #423 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sillert,V.I. View Post
This was the subject of an AAIB Field Investigation.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ATMT_10-17.pdf

Basically descent below MSA in IMC whilst not following a published approach procedure.
It was rhetorical. My apologies but the point was someone posted that an investigation will get to the bottom of the purpose of the flight and who was paying. In the past other PPL's have crashed as you suggest and there was no mention of who was paying or any highlight in the report that it was even something to investigate. So why should it happen here? One assumes you could give a premiership player a lift just as one might give a fellow pilot from a well known aviation supplier a lift? No?
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:23
  #424 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by what next View Post
. But any penny changing hands that exceeds cost sharing would have made the whole thing illegal.
and how much is that exactly in real GBP or EUR? Lets be realistic. Lets assume you wanted to be super illegal and as a pilot charge what? 400GBP a day for your efforts? Do you think that it would be very difficult to hide 400GBP under the context of "costs" when we are talking about a PA46? The average club snot box PA28 can vary in 60 or 70 quid per hour up and down the country. So a PA46, over several hours and overnight hangarage at a non-home airfield etc etc etc. Its not even a challenge.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:23
  #425 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
yet on another day in another place the investigation didn't seem to care less why an aircraft was grubbing around in such obviously poor weather to collect another pilot to take him to another airfield to collect another aircraft. I'm sure when asked the other pilot, possibly a little more savvy simply suggested they were the firmest of mates and it was a favour, etc, etc, etc. BUT perhaps he was a mate and it was a favour and the payback was something other than money, maybe it was to enrich the soul? Yet put a premiership footballer in the mix and everyone is at it!
I knew what you were referring to Pitts but in the absence of any evidence, one mate putting his life at risk to go and pick up another mate is what happened and you can’t suggest anything else.

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Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:33
  #426 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


I knew what you were referring to Pitts but in the absence of any evidence, one mate putting his life at risk to go and pick up another mate is what happened and you can’t suggest anything else.

Of course I agree 100% so why do we suggest anything nefarious was afoot this week?
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:34
  #427 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
and how much is that exactly in real GBP or EUR? Lets be realistic. Lets assume you wanted to be super illegal and as a pilot charge what? 400GBP a day for your efforts? Do you think that it would be very difficult to hide 400GBP under the context of "costs" when we are talking about a PA46? The average club snot box PA28 can vary in 60 or 70 quid per hour up and down the country. So a PA46, over several hours and overnight hangarage at a non-home airfield etc etc etc. Its not even a challenge.
You are right. But we were talking about legality only. And if people find clever ways to hide the money they pay to their unqualified pilots the whole thing remains illegal.
In the accident investigation these issues are not really important. But - apart from the tragic loss of life - someone lost 15M currency units in this accident. Therefore they will drag anyone to court who offeres them even the remotest chance of recovering their financial loss. And if they suspect someone to have offered (or paid) a PPL holder money to conduct the flight than this someone better looks for a real good lawyer.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:40
  #428 (permalink)  
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Lots of suppositions and assumptions looking for someone to blame while the truth is most probably much more simple :

Try this : An agent that want to please and impress his client ( I can get you a private aircraft to get to Cardiff, forget commercial via or CDG or AMS ) , a young guy that is impressed by it , (and frankly would anyone refuse this ? ) A friend that know a friend that has a Malibu and can do this cheaply ( or even for free ) a Malibu ? for 99% of people a Malibu is a very sleek turbine private a/c , who had heard of a piston Malibu before ? The owner of the aircraft calling one of his friends always eager to fly , saying , Mr X ( who normally flies the plane ) cannot today you want to fly to Nantes and back with it to get someone important ? Who will say no ?
You arrive there , the weather is not to your liking but the kid and his agent are pushing to get there as he has first training with this new club and full media coverage the next morning . So he is pushed in a corner he does not like but not in a position to really say no .
During the flight something happens not planned that he did not encounter before , electric, icing , engine , whatever, everything gets aligned , and bingo!.

Really nothing much to do with N- registration or Commercial or EU legislation . Everyone of us could have been caught in this . and the more I think about it , me included . The only thing that differentiate us all in this situation is our power to say no. The rest is just bar discussions with Mr hindsight.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:47
  #429 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sillert,V.I. View Post
This was the subject of an AAIB Field Investigation.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...ATMT_10-17.pdf

Basically descent below MSA in IMC whilst not following a published approach procedure.
Same pilot, same aircraft previous incident August 2011- from the AAIB report,

Reporting of the accident
A third party notified the AAIB of the accident in February 2012. The pilot did not consider that the damage to the aircraft constituted a reportable occurrence. Accidents and serious incidents that are reportable to the AAIB are defined in the Civil Aviation (Investigation of Air Accidents and Incidents) Regulations 1996, available on the AAIB website.


Carrying three paying passengers from the Channel Islands I understand, broke the wing spar and bent the wing such that it had to be replaced...... eventually this 'grey charter' business sadly seems to have caught up with him. There are quite a few pilots out there quietly chiseling a living out of aviation without the relevant skill set, supervision or qualification, every so often one of them comes unstuck.The AAIB reports can be more telling for what they don't directly say than what they do on occasion.

Enough said other than that there potentially appear to be multiple similarities in profile between the Malibu incident pilot and the pilot of the PA30.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 13:56
  #430 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher View Post
Lots of suppositions and assumptions looking for someone to blame while the truth is most probably much more simple :

Try this : A friend that know a friend that has a Malibu and can do this cheaply ( or even for free ) a Malibu ?
Nobody positions from say Gamston to Nantes, to go to Cardiff to then reposition back to Gamston for 'free'. Based on all indications so far, this was an illegal charter. Proving who paid what to whom for what is for the police, the lawyers and insurance companies inolved. It is horrendously messy.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 14:00
  #431 (permalink)  
 
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To try and summarise so far...

What most likely happened to the Piper is that it iced up. At 5,000 ft, in a front with 7 C on the deck, it would have been flying with an OAT of about -5 C, peak icing. A request to descend to 2,300 ft would fit with that.

Under EASA regs single engine single pilot commercial ops at night or IMC are limited to turbines. As this was a SEP Malibu, the flight could not have been legal if what was in any sense legal. The pilot didn't have a full IR rating; if had have had one, the flight would have been safely conducted in Class A above FL150, above the icing layer. SEP over water isn't dangerous.

The only ways this flight could have been conducted legally would be if the cost was being shared, in this case 50/50 pilot/passenger, or if the pilot was not being paid at all. I don't think someone with a CCJ against them would have been able to afford the former, but that doesn't preclude the latter. Indeed I wouldn't be surprised if someone hired the Piper from the owner for the cost of the flight (fuel, fees etc), but the pilot was purely volunteering. That he was not qualified to undertake the flight safely (i.e. IFR, high in the airways) but did it anyway is poor airmanship. Yes he could have flown the whole trip below the freezing level, about 3,000 ft, but that would have been... bold.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 14:04
  #432 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
Of course I agree 100% so why do we suggest anything nefarious was afoot this week?
It’s the language being used “book”, “arrange”, “aircraft available” that suggests that this was some sort of commercial transaction. It is the unwillingness of anyone involved to say how the aircraft was booked/arranged. It is an aircraft that doesn’t have any identifiable owner/operator.

Last edited by runway30; 25th Jan 2019 at 14:08. Reason: Punctuation
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 14:14
  #433 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


It’s the language being used “book”, “arrange”, “aircraft available” that suggests that this was some sort of commercial transaction. It is the unwillingness of anyone involved to say how the aircraft was booked/arranged. It is an aircraft that doesn’t any identifiable owner/operator.
My friend as you know some words are used out of context by the unknowing. Once as aviators the height of our moral high ground is inversely proportional to the degree we knew Bloggs. It has been the same in all the recent helicopter fatals, the same in the airshow crash which everyone defended as nothing to see until it seems to be in court [which btw is a very sad day for all of us and I wish AH the best of luck]. My point being you can not be a little bit pregnant and it seems very unfair to pan the pilot of this PA46 over commercials when the very practice of "booking" and "arranging" a flight is deemed acceptable by authority via the variety of "flight sharing" apps as you will well know. Unless one books how else do you get a seat?
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 14:20
  #434 (permalink)  
 
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Make of this what you will. It's the Daily mail, but...
Daily Mail report
miliano Sala's doomed flight from Nantes to Cardiff was delayed by up to 10 hours forcing the plane to take off at night, MailOnline can reveal.Pilot David Ibbotson had expected to fly the single-engine Piper Malibu plane on the morning of Monday 21 January, crossing the English Channel in day-light hours.But the morning departure from Nantes-Atlantique Airport was cancelled and the flight took off at 7.15pm on Monday evening.

Officials have so far not explained why the flight was delayed.

In a further twist, the original flight plan named a different pilot for journey, who pulled out at the 11th hour, according to respected newspaper Ouest France.David Henderson's name was on a flight plan submitted to Nantes airport on Monday - the day of the journey - before it was cancelled and replaced with a second plan with David Ibbotson named as the pilot, officials have revealed.


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Old 25th Jan 2019, 14:34
  #435 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by CBSITCB View Post
If he was "not there" (i.e. not in France) he was not close to boarding.
This report asserts that three people - Henderson, Ibbotson and Sala - were recorded passing though passport control at Nantes prior to departure of the ill-fated flight though, as we know, Henderson was not on board when it disappeared.

In the same article, he is reported as saying that he had not been to Nantes for at least a year.

Clearly both statements can't be simultaneously true.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 14:38
  #436 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eutychus View Post
Originally Posted by Romaro View Post
...flew this private, N-Reg, single-piston engined aircraft for McKay to transport footballers from A to B, occassionaly IFR, in EU airspace, one can rationally assume that payment was involved between the parties for services rendered. (...) In multiple respects this is simply illegal.
Aggh, I thought I was just getting a handle on all this... which part of this is "simpy illegal"?
Simply, if the pilot holds an FAA CPL (commercial pilot licence) and an FAA IR and if no payment is asked from the footballers, then it is perfectly legal.
It is a private flight paid and organised by the aircraft operator.

If the pilot is FAA PPL (private pilot licence) with an FAA IR, it could still be legal (but on the edge) if the pilot is not paid and if the flight is organised by him and the footballers.
Some participation to the flight cost by the passengers is even possible in this configuration.

If the flight is paid by the passengers, it is illegal in the absence of an AOC (air operator's certificate).
The PA46 of the accident at hand was not fit for AOC operation (engine is not a turbine).
The AOC is held by the aircraft operator.

If the pilot does not hold the proper licence CPL + IR (or PPL + IR) then it is also illegal.

I don't have the complete meteorological picture (see partial info here: Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island)
but it seems that this type of the aircraft was fit to the task, if all de-icing equipment was serviceable.
The pilot could have flown above the weather at flight level 200 (20000 ft) and the de-icing boots and pads could have dealt with light and moderate icing on approach.

The chosen flight profile with a cruising altitude of 5000 ft (even below airway floor) is hard to understand.
I wonder if the pilot was very experienced in IFR flying in winter IMC conditions.

Last edited by Luc Lion; 25th Jan 2019 at 14:56.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 14:38
  #437 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pittsextra View Post
My friend as you know some words are used out of context by the unknowing. Once as aviators the height of our moral high ground is inversely proportional to the degree we knew Bloggs. It has been the same in all the recent helicopter fatals, the same in the airshow crash which everyone defended as nothing to see until it seems to be in court [which btw is a very sad day for all of us and I wish AH the best of luck]. My point being you can not be a little bit pregnant and it seems very unfair to pan the pilot of this PA46 over commercials when the very practice of "booking" and "arranging" a flight is deemed acceptable by authority via the variety of "flight sharing" apps as you will well know. Unless one books how else do you get a seat?
Pitts, absolutely agree that the public would use words in common use which could lead to confusion. I have tried very hard not to condemn the pilot because I am worried that the pilot will end up taking all the blame for this and whatever mistakes he has made that will not be fair. However I still believe that the flight sharing scenario is the most unlikely because why would a man, maybe struggling to pay the bills, take several days out of his life to go and sit in an airport hotel whilst subsidising a very wealthy footballer?
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 14:39
  #438 (permalink)  
 
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I am reminded of a jet charter into Aspen where the customers turned up late so that the arrival time would be in the dark, when the airport is closed. The HNW customer insisted that they absolutely had to be in Aspen. Unfortunately they hit an unlit hill on approach and missed the event.
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 14:47
  #439 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Eutychus View Post
Aggh, I thought I was just getting a handle on all this... which part of this is "simpy illegal"?

Improper certification for an N-reg aicraft?
No AOC?
No CPL?
IFR as opposed to VFR?
Payment for services rendered?
EU airspace?
...?

It's understanding how this matrix fits together to constitute something dodgy that us poor trusting users need more clarity on.

Aside from "at night/bad weather/single-engine over water/poor cruise altitude decision" issues.
Try reading here:
https://www.britishhelicopterassocia...-Transport.pdf
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Old 25th Jan 2019, 14:51
  #440 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Nige321 View Post
miliano Sala's doomed flight from Nantes to Cardiff was delayed by up to 10 hours forcing the plane to take off at night, MailOnline can reveal.Pilot David Ibbotson had expected to fly the single-engine Piper Malibu plane on the morning of Monday 21 January, crossing the English Channel in day-light hours.But the morning departure from Nantes-Atlantique Airport was cancelled and the flight took off at 7.15pm on Monday evening.
If Daily Mail is right, we are getting closer, but not prettier, to a plausible scenario.
If that 'Dibbo' expected to fly the trip VFR-Day, many up to now known facts would come together.
Besides from the 'CPL needed?' part, his FAA PPL license may have been ok for the VFR-Day trip.
Now the big Q:
From all other rumors, was his competency, license, medical sufficient to do an IFR or IFR-like night flight?
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