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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 23rd Jan 2019, 22:14
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post


I don’t care how competent you are, if you aren’t current then you may not be as competent as you think you are. We don’t know at the moment.

Even if you are competent, you have a responsibility to make your passengers aware of the risks of single engine over water at night.
We have the basic facts of the incident. Let's digest and come back to this when the media have backed off. As sure they will when the next "scoop" comes along - probably something to do with Brexit.

Yes, there are questions to be answered about how an individual performed this flight (as PIC) but we should wait on the HARD facts.

Last edited by Auxtank; 24th Jan 2019 at 09:41.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 22:21
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by piperboy84 View Post
Heís right, a trust is the legal owner.
That's the legal position for any trust arrangement. To say you are the 'owner' of anything legally owned by a trustee would get you in tax trouble as well as other things.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 22:26
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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I’m quite sure that in the final analysis this flight will be found to have been organised in the same way and by some of the same individuals that organise the positioning of jockeys around UK and European race courses, some of the names mentioned are well known race goers, problem here of course is that the cost sharing regs which work so well for the G reg jockey “operators”will not apply...........
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 22:54
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by patagonia1 View Post
He was IR(r) qualified or at least he used to be and renewed it for his jump flying activities. He was a seasoned jump pilot and had ferried planes regularly to dropzones across Europe and further afield, typically Dorner G92s , Grand Caravans etc. He was a competent pilot so the speculation about his abilities are totally unfounded as I flew with him on a variety of occasions and he was both professional and competent, including in IMC.
Legal information N registered aircraft

An IR (r) instrument rating restricted (old IMC) has no validity outside UK airspace, it is at present a UK only qualification.

The IR (r) qualification is also only valid on UK registered aircraft flying within UK airspace and has no validity on USA registered aircraft flying in any countries airspace including the UK.

To fly IFR in an N registered aircraft anywhere the FAA licence must be endorsed with an instrument qualification.

A UK issued IR (r) or EASA full IR does not authorise a pilot to fly an N registered aircraft IFR.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 23:03
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by WhoopWhoopWhoops View Post
Legal information N registered aircraft

An IR (r) instrument rating restricted (old IMC) has no validity outside UK airspace, it is at present a UK only qualification.

The IR (r) qualification is also only valid on UK registered aircraft flying within UK airspace and has no validity on USA registered aircraft flying in any countries airspace including the UK.

To fly IFR in an N registered aircraft anywhere the FAA licence must be endorsed with an instrument qualification.

A UK issued IR (r) or EASA full IR does not authorise a pilot to fly an N registered aircraft IFR.

In a sea (sorry) of speculation, that seems to be the first real black & white bit of info we have had on this thread.

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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 23:21
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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The IR (r) qualification is also only valid on UK registered aircraft flying within UK airspace and has no validity on USA registered aircraft flying in any countries airspace including the UK.
FARS allows a foreign pilot to fly a US registered aircraft in the State that issues the pilots licence. There is no limitation of exercising any of the privileges held on that pilot's licence, including using an IMC rating. This was recently confirmed by the FAA's New York office in writing. It is of course not valid in another State.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 23:25
  #247 (permalink)  
 
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To introduce another slice of Swiss cheese...
Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post
zNewspapers are carrying details of one of the last messages from the passenger.
Prior to the flight, the passenger messaged friends to come looking for him if he fell out of contact. We don't know if this was said in jest, is it an acknowledgement that the passenger was cognisant of the risks of this flight or was he nervous of flying in small planes?
However, two other messages during the flight seem to be genuine expressions of apprehension.
A nervous passenger at night over cold water, is in itself an additional pressure for a single pilot.
In a worst case scenario the passenger effects flight safety.

Mjb
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 23:29
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airpolice View Post
In a sea (sorry) of speculation, that seems to be the first real black & white bit of info we have had on this thread.
Except itís wrong as the poster above says.

What is definitely correct is that to fly an N-reg aircraft outside of the state that issued your licence you need to have a valid FAA licence for that operation.

So flying a US aircraft IFR in France without a French-issued EASA licence with an IR, or having an IR on your FAA licence, is not valid.

What I am amazed by is how few people know these regulations for a professional pilots forum...
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 23:33
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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The Sun now reporting that the plane, departing from Nantes, "only managed to take off after 4 attempts." Anyone know any more about that at this point?
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 23:38
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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So were these flights safe?

I hope you'll indulge an SLF here after reading some of the above comments.

In early autumn last year I flew as one of three passengers on an N-registered SE Piper (not sure about exact model but I think had four rear seats facing each other) from Caen to Guernsey; daytime flight, calm sea state, excellent visibility. We were given life harnesses by the pilot and briefed, summarily, on their use.

I made the return trip that afternoon with a different pilot, one other passenger, no life jacket or briefing, in a G-registered Piper Cherokee. We departed early at the pilot's insistence because the fog was closing in as it does over there. In fact we ran to the plane and taxied out and took off in a big hurry; by the time we left the runway, the fog was rolling in at the end of the runway and probably not far off the ATC limit for us to take off. The rest of the flight conditions were as on the outward leg. After the flight with hindsight I was a little worried about this haste and can totally see the pressure pilots come under in these GA situations.

For both flights I have no knowledge of the arrangements other than that I am sure an invoice was issued; I was on business and trusted my client.

My questions are:
- was one of these flights safer from a regulatory point of view?
- was the level of risk of either or both of these flights acceptable for such an arrangement when carrying paying passengers?

Thanks for any answers.
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 23:40
  #251 (permalink)  
 
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Right, plenty of talk about weather this flight should have gone or not, and how qualified people where.

Is it me or is there a glaring beacon that this stinks to hell, what the hell is a professional premier league footballer earning 50k a week doing in this situation on a plane like this flown in the way, it makes no sense whatsoever, something is up here
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​​​​​​Why did he not travel on a commercial flight? Or why not a proper bizjet company
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Old 23rd Jan 2019, 23:54
  #252 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Whopity View Post
FARS allows a foreign pilot to fly a US registered aircraft in the State that issues the pilots licence. There is no limitation of exercising any of the privileges held on that pilot's licence, including using an IMC rating. This was recently confirmed by the FAA's New York office in writing. It is of course not valid in another State.
I do not doubt the letter you have received from a FSDO however I can find no basis for this opinion in US law.

US law is specific that an instrument qualification is required on a FAA licence for IFR. .

Furthermore the CAA specifically state that this IR (r) qualification is limited to UK registered aircraft in UK airspace. The IR(r) does not meet the requirements of ICAO recognition and therefore is limited to UK aircraft and UK airspace.

US law will always be paramount regarding operation of US aircraft and the only relevant US law regarding recognition of ICAO pilot licences is below.

ß61.75 Private pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign pilot license. (a) General. A person who holds a foreign pilot license at the private pilot level or higher that was issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation may apply for and be issued a U.S. private pilot certificate with the appropriate ratings if the foreign pilot license meets the requirements of this section. (b) Certificate issued. A U.S. private pilot certificate issued under this section must specify the personís foreign license number and country of issuance. A person who holds a foreign pilot license issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation may be issued a U.S. private pilot certificate based on the foreign pilot license without any further showing of proficiency, provided the applicant: (1) Meets the requirements of this section; (2) Holds a foreign pilot license, at the private pilot license level or higher, that does not contain a limitation stating that the applicant has not met all of the standards of ICAO for that license; (3) Does not hold a U.S. pilot certificate other than a U.S. student pilot certificate; (4) Holds a medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter or a medical license issued by the country that issued the personís foreign pilot license; and (5) Is able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicantís pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft. (c) Aircraft ratings issued. Aircraft ratings listed on a personís foreign pilot license, in addition to any issued after testing under the provisions of this part, may be placed on that personís U.S. pilot certificate for private pilot privileges only. (d) Instrument ratings issued. A person who holds an instrument rating on the foreign pilot license issued by a contracting State to the Convention on International Civil Aviation may be issued an instrument rating on a U.S. pilot certificate provided: (1) The personís foreign pilot license authorizes instrument privileges; (2) Within 24 months preceding the month in which the person applies for the instrument rating, the person passes the appropriate knowledge test; and (3) The person is able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicantís pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft. (e) Operating privileges and limitations. A person who receives a U.S. private pilot certificate that has been issued under the provisions of this section: (1) May act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft of the United States in accordance with the pilot privileges authorized by this part and the limitations placed on that U.S. pilot certificate; (2) Is limited to the privileges placed on the certificate by the Administrator; (3) Is subject to the limitations and restrictions on the personís U.S. certificate and foreign pilot license when exercising the privileges of that U.S. pilot certificate in an aircraft of U.S. registry operating within or outside the United States; and (f) Limitation on licenses used as the basis for a U.S. certificate. A person may use only one foreign pilot license as a basis for the issuance of a U.S. pilot certificate. The foreign pilot license and medical certification used as a basis for issuing a U.S. pilot certificate under this section must be written in English or accompanied by an English transcription that has been signed by an official or representative of the foreign aviation authority that issued the foreign pilot license. (g) Limitation placed on a U.S. pilot certificate. A U.S. pilot certificate issued under this section can only be exercised when the pilot has the foreign pilot license, upon which the issuance of the U.S. pilot certificate was based, in the holderís possession or readily accessible in the aircraft.

I trust this clarifies the requirements
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 00:00
  #253 (permalink)  
 
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Amazed by ignorance?

Originally Posted by rr84c View Post
What I am amazed by is how few people know these regulations for a professional pilots forum...
Having quietly read many discussions here it doesn't surprise me at all. Most people only know about the regulations that impact them directly. For example, in this thread it was asserted that only a US National can own a US registered aircraft. Simply not true. I'm not a US national and I have legally owned more than one US (N registered) aircraft. What is strange, but true, is that a US National and a non US national cannot be joint owners of an N registered aircraft. Ownership of US registered aircraft is actually restricted to "US Persons" a category that includes not only nationals but also those with resident alien status.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 00:08
  #254 (permalink)  
 
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Is it me or is there a glaring beacon that this stinks to hell, what the hell is a professional premier league footballer earning 50k a week doing in this situation on a plane like this flown in the way, it makes no sense whatsoever, something is up here
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There's no conspiracy. He was with his mates in Nantes. Offered a commercial flight back from Paris but decided to go back with the plane his agent booked for him. Unfortunately, he was between clubs so not really being managed or looked after. He (and probably his agent) had no idea about the sort of things we're talking about here. You tell Joe Public he's going on a private plane and he sees in his mind everything from a twin beech to a twin jet. If the pilot is confident and reassuring (either through stupidity or get home-itis), it's going to be a passenger with very acute clarity of thought who doesn't go along.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 00:17
  #255 (permalink)  
 
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That is very true clareprop. I probably know as much about football (next to nothing) as this chap knew about aviation,and what to us seems a mad decision for someone with his financial resources was probably something that never occurred to him. What is certain is that he was very badly advised.

If the pilot is confident and reassuring (either through stupidity or get home-itis),
Graham Hill springs to mind.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 00:30
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clareprop View Post
There's no conspiracy. He was with his mates in Nantes. Offered a commercial flight back from Paris but decided to go back with the plane his agent booked for him. Unfortunately, he was between clubs so not really being managed or looked after. He (and probably his agent) had no idea about the sort of things we're talking about here. You tell Joe Public he's going on a private plane and he sees in his mind everything from a twin beech to a twin jet. If the pilot is confident and reassuring (either through stupidity or get home-itis), it's going to be a passenger with very acute clarity of thought who doesn't go along.
He wouldnít have known the difference but I think it will be discovered during the investigation that someone very much knew what was going on and smoke and mirrors are being used at the moment.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 03:39
  #257 (permalink)  
 
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When I used to live and fly in the CIs many years ago I remember whispers of an insurance job ditching near Alderney, the Casquets location ensuring that the changes of finding any evidence pretty much nil due to the tides and currents. Legend had it that the pilot was collected and survived to do it again. CI secrecy is famous and this could all have been Aero Club wind-ups of course.

I used to fly to Alderney from Jersey and back every day in a single engine piston, clearance was always SVFR not above 1000, got caught by the 40 knot fogs a few times and had to divert to LFRC....is VFR at night allowed in French airspace now?

Why would the transponder cut out over water at 2300 unless there was a problem in flight, fire/structural failure? Would icing affect the antenna?

Anyhow can only imagine what must have been going through that footballer's mind in his last few minutes, it doesn't bear thinking about. RIP.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 05:34
  #258 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2 View Post
Surely he wasn't planning to cross the Channel at MSA?



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It isn't possible to be high enough to glide to land if the engine calves for the entire segment between Guernsey and the on track shore crossing point. I may be missing your point, but two things. We know he wasn't "planning" to fly at MSA because he filed for higher. That aside, what is wrong with crossing the channel at MSA when IFR, or 100 feet when VFR? It's 75 miles from Guernsey to the far shoreline. He couldn't maintain 5000 and had to request lower to 2000, so the only glide to shore places were at best max 10 northwest of Guernsey, and no more than 10 short of the intended shore crossing point. I have flown a bit from Biggin Hill VFR to the Channel Islands, and sometimes that was at 1000 due to weather. Mind you, it was in a 310.

The assumption is they are down near Guernsey, and that is a good assumption. The truth may be they are five miles from Cardiff or really anywhere between Guernsey and Cardiff, including in the Bristol Channel. Sure, 80% in the search area, but in all of these circumstances, buck shee chisel chartering, the questionable legality of the flight if an emergency had been declared and questions asked, it is possible that this was a guy ducking down to get home, but IFR and unable to ask for lower than the MSA.

It doesn't seem that the pilot was fully at the races with IFR.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 07:34
  #259 (permalink)  
 
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The report by The Sun, that the aircraft took three or four attempts to take off, are they suggesting three or four take off rolls, with a taxi back to the take off point, it is bizarre and makes me think back to the Munich disaster. I cant imagine a pilot attempting more than two take off runs, and that would be very rare and with good reason. Again a take off roll with a few hops again would be unlikely. As for any reasons behind such a departure such as being overweight, contaminated flying surfaces, engine malfunction or incorrect configuration, this could not happen to the worst pilot on his worst day, could it? Not least it might cause suspicion to ATC or recall back to the apron/stand.

An interesting suggestion that the aircraft may have pressed on to Cardiff, placing the crash site anywhere in the English Channel, Bristol Channel, Exmoor or Dartmoor. It would be interesting to know what exactly the radar traces reveal.

Last edited by anchorhold; 24th Jan 2019 at 07:51.
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Old 24th Jan 2019, 08:01
  #260 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by anchorhold View Post
The report by The Sun...
I think the best plan is to take anything printed in The Sun with a pinch of salt until it is confrimed (or otherwise) through official channels. Especially if, like you say, it sounds unreasonable. It probably is, being printed in The Sun.
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