Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Scotland
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't see any regulatory loop holes Richard, it's just a case of catching the transgressors, a bit like those speedsters on the freeway, the rules are there, you just need to catch them and put them in front of the courts.
I come from a school of thought that says that leisure flying and commercial flying should kept 100% separate and regulations should be in place to prevent any overlap and substantially inhibit any "tinkering" with the rules. Anyone who has been around GA for any length of time will know exactly where the grey areas are. Other than a long life long interest in flight safety lingering from a 30 year professional career in aviation, I have no dog in the fight, so I'll refrain from details...there are commercial operators who no doubt will have more to say. Indeed some already are (my bold):
The Air Charter Association said the sentencing would set a precedent for the future.
Chief executive Glenn Hogben said: "There's more that can be done but it will certainly serve as a significant deterrent to people who are either currently involved in these types of practices or make people think twice about taking that sort of direction."
Chief executive Glenn Hogben said: "There's more that can be done but it will certainly serve as a significant deterrent to people who are either currently involved in these types of practices or make people think twice about taking that sort of direction."
Moderator
then the football agents etc asking for these cut price flights
I entirely agree that chisel charters have no place in our industry, and should be stopped. As said, 100% distinction between private and commercial air transport. But, as long as the entirely unknowing public person, knows "a guy", the ONLY check in the system will be is that guy honest enough to say "sorry, I can't help you, I won't fly for hire, you should call this charter operator.". If person's person's were being diligently directed to charter operators for charter flights by the "guys" in the grey zone of our industry, this would not be a problem. But in this scenario, person public is extremely poorly informed to decide for themself what service to accept, and what service to decline.
Sure, if someone turned up in a ratty 172 wearing a T shirt, person might think twice, but a Malibu is a convincing type for a "professional" seeming trip, and if the pilot is wearing striped epaulets on a white shirt, it probably seals the deal with no further consideration....
Yes, but the "many of us" are not relying in a court on this as some sort of accolade. The implication, because it's not stated otherwise, and to those not digging any further, is that he was a qualified air force pilot from those times - which is clearly not the case, and the RAF should put the media straight.
de minimus non curat lex
If Cardiff FC had their own aircraft, with professional pilots as employees, then no one would question the out and back to Nantes preferably multi crewed in say a Kingair or something similar. Something which the Clubs and others now appreciate.
The Big Brother option to monitor all flight plans for ‘unusual activity’ in real time.
Where a flight plan is not filed, the aerodrome movement log will reveal details including destination although not in real time. Big brother would require details to be passed to them on departure, of those aircraft with ‘markers’ [ANPR concept] on them. Certainty onerous on the aerodrome authority?
Agent provocateur technique to catch those “at it” probably a set too far?
HMRC pay informants where undeclared tax is collected from tax payers.
Might the CAA consider such a similar scheme?
Some thought provoking comments would come as no surprise…
The Big Brother option to monitor all flight plans for ‘unusual activity’ in real time.
Where a flight plan is not filed, the aerodrome movement log will reveal details including destination although not in real time. Big brother would require details to be passed to them on departure, of those aircraft with ‘markers’ [ANPR concept] on them. Certainty onerous on the aerodrome authority?
Agent provocateur technique to catch those “at it” probably a set too far?
HMRC pay informants where undeclared tax is collected from tax payers.
Might the CAA consider such a similar scheme?
Some thought provoking comments would come as no surprise…
Yes, but the "many of us" are not relying in a court on this as some sort of accolade. The implication, because it's not stated otherwise, and to those not digging any further, is that he was a qualified air force pilot from those times - which is clearly not the case, and the RAF should put the media straight.
In the context of this case TBH I’m not sure anybody much cared about his background and I doubt at this stage in proceedings the RAF putting anybody “straight” would be noticed by the MSM, let alone be published.
It’s much more important that people realise there’s a difference between a PPL and a commercial license, and hopefully the coverage did ensure “many of us” are now fully aware of that.
The judge's sentencing remarks have now been published:
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...s-12.11.21.pdf
He is sentenced for offences around endangering the aircraft but not for the consequences. He is described as a an experienced Commercial Pilot but so far as I can see no mention is made of the RAF - presumably that point came out in wider evidence during the trial.
Read in its own terms the note is a pretty damning indictment of Henderson and his attitude to operating charters of this type. Ibbotson's failings had been flagged for him by another passenger and by the fact that there had been MOR's regarding (1) an infringement of controlled airspace and (b) runway infringements while taxying.
https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...s-12.11.21.pdf
He is sentenced for offences around endangering the aircraft but not for the consequences. He is described as a an experienced Commercial Pilot but so far as I can see no mention is made of the RAF - presumably that point came out in wider evidence during the trial.
Read in its own terms the note is a pretty damning indictment of Henderson and his attitude to operating charters of this type. Ibbotson's failings had been flagged for him by another passenger and by the fact that there had been MOR's regarding (1) an infringement of controlled airspace and (b) runway infringements while taxying.
"fatal if patient not given fresh air/oxygen in time."
It's worse than that. Two workmen in Edinburgh were exposed to CO, were able to leave and drive away, but both died. Blood has permanently lost O2 transport ability, and hospital care would be needed, but might not be enough. It's not just anoxia.
It's worse than that. Two workmen in Edinburgh were exposed to CO, were able to leave and drive away, but both died. Blood has permanently lost O2 transport ability, and hospital care would be needed, but might not be enough. It's not just anoxia.
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Encamp
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alternative (partial) solution to 'more policing' ?
The issue of lack of enforcement of current rules in the UK has been highlighted in many posts.
The remedies mentioned have almost invariably related to better policing of these rules.
Might I suggest an alternative, which whilst certainly not covering all eventualities would, I believe, have the virtue of closing down major segments of this dangerous black market in air transport.
Emiliano Salas was being transferred between Nantes and Cardiff City, the latter then playing in the English Premier League (despite the obvious geographical anomoly.)
Why do the authorities (sic) in this case the CAA, though possibly including both the Air Charter Association and BALPA, not approach the Premiership to establish a code of practice which specifically outlaws the use of aircraft and pilots which are not on the official register by their players or club officials?
My knowledge of the air transport industry is next to non-existent but horse racing also appears at times to be heavily dependent on these cowboy operators, so why not approach them too?
Could the Premiership or the British Horse Racing Authority in current circumstances really fail to respond positively to such an approach?
I suggest not.
The remedies mentioned have almost invariably related to better policing of these rules.
Might I suggest an alternative, which whilst certainly not covering all eventualities would, I believe, have the virtue of closing down major segments of this dangerous black market in air transport.
Emiliano Salas was being transferred between Nantes and Cardiff City, the latter then playing in the English Premier League (despite the obvious geographical anomoly.)
Why do the authorities (sic) in this case the CAA, though possibly including both the Air Charter Association and BALPA, not approach the Premiership to establish a code of practice which specifically outlaws the use of aircraft and pilots which are not on the official register by their players or club officials?
My knowledge of the air transport industry is next to non-existent but horse racing also appears at times to be heavily dependent on these cowboy operators, so why not approach them too?
Could the Premiership or the British Horse Racing Authority in current circumstances really fail to respond positively to such an approach?
I suggest not.
Last edited by sirAlex; 13th Nov 2021 at 22:38. Reason: Addition of 1 word; vital for coherence
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: York
Age: 68
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
de minimus non curat lex
Why do the authorities (sic) in this case the CAA, though possibly including both the Air Charter Association and BALPA, not approach the Premiership to establish a code of practice which specifically outlaws the use of aircraft and pilots which are not on the official register by their players or club officials?
(Snip)
Could the Premiership or the British Horse Racing Authority in current circumstances really fail to respond positively to such an approach?
I suggest not.
If a premiere league footballer wants to change club (overseas) his agent would do the arrangements, the club he’s leaving is unlikely to be told he’s in meetings or negotiations until the deal is done, so travel etc would be in a private capacity. The agent has a financial interest in making as much money as possible from the deal, step in the likes of Mr Mckay etc.
Jockies, it’s up to them to get from meeting to meeting. If the venues airspace is class G it’s pilot determined if the weather is ‘viable’ and they’re departing/landing at a private site. If they’re riding for two different owners at two different locations on the same day, which owner pays for the transport? Neither, it’s up to the rider that get from event A to B. If a ‘mate’ agrees/offers to fly them for ‘free’…
I could see the FA/jockey club et al, making a recommendation that clubs/owners ensure ‘company’ travel is appropriately licensed and insured. But that’s not going to stop an incident like the Sala case as it wasn’t ‘company’ travel.
It should be obvious from this case that any type of aerial or public transport work carried out on either a UK or foreign registered aircraft without the required pilot qualifications and AOC documentation is illegal.
This includes private aircraft used for a business and persons flying on board such aircraft as part of their employment. I would suggest over the last two decades a lot of air to air photography seen in magazines is in breach of these rules.
Questions must also be raised over parachute aircraft operations in the UK.
Ibbotson was clearly getting material benefits from his parachute flying in acquiring flying hours.
I would suggest that most of the so called Wingly flights are also in breach of the regulations.
This includes private aircraft used for a business and persons flying on board such aircraft as part of their employment. I would suggest over the last two decades a lot of air to air photography seen in magazines is in breach of these rules.
Questions must also be raised over parachute aircraft operations in the UK.
Ibbotson was clearly getting material benefits from his parachute flying in acquiring flying hours.
I would suggest that most of the so called Wingly flights are also in breach of the regulations.
Questions must also be raised over parachute aircraft operations in the UK.
Ibbotson was clearly getting material benefits from his parachute flying in acquiring flying hours
Ibbotson was clearly getting material benefits from his parachute flying in acquiring flying hours
5.1.1 Aircraft Pilot Requirements for Parachuting Operations
An aircraft Pilot (other than for a balloon, recreation, sports aviation or warbird) engaged in the dropping of parachutists must hold:
(a) a valid commercial pilot licence (CPL); or
(b) a valid private pilot licence (PPL) and have 200 hours total aeronautical experience, of which at 100 hours must be as pilot in command; or
(c) an APF Certificate Class D and a valid private pilot licence and have 120 hours total aeronautical experience of which 70 hours must be as pilot in command; and must have:
(d) 10 hours experience on the particular aircraft type or an aircraft type of similar performance, weight and operational complexity.
An aircraft Pilot (other than for a balloon, recreation, sports aviation or warbird) engaged in the dropping of parachutists must hold:
(a) a valid commercial pilot licence (CPL); or
(b) a valid private pilot licence (PPL) and have 200 hours total aeronautical experience, of which at 100 hours must be as pilot in command; or
(c) an APF Certificate Class D and a valid private pilot licence and have 120 hours total aeronautical experience of which 70 hours must be as pilot in command; and must have:
(d) 10 hours experience on the particular aircraft type or an aircraft type of similar performance, weight and operational complexity.
Last edited by megan; 15th Nov 2021 at 03:02.
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Scotland
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Honest question Richard, what regulatory loop holes do you feel need to be closed?
After 30 years in aviation (two years in a flying school, but not in a flying role) I now work in Compliance and Due Diligence. I have considerable subject matter expertise in Financial Regulation and Data Protection Regulation. Both areas which have in the past decade or so have had to have considerable regulatory intervention following widespread abuse, often of a criminal and fraudulent nature. Regulation plays a vital role in moderating the legal boundaries of any commercial industy; finanacial greed - which is a timeless element of the Human Condition - will always overcome moderation in any free market enterprise. Note: this is not a political position - I am a nailed on free market capitalist myself.
Regulation is at its weakest when two factors combine:
- Enabling narrative, in other words ambiguous or vague text that allows for favourable interpretations that allow the "boundary pushers" to go beyond the legally acceptable.
- Regulations which do not establish easy/accessible opportunties for continous and real time audit and due diligence.
...it's just a case of catching the transgressors, a bit like those speedsters on the freeway, the rules are there, you just need to catch them and put them in front of the courts.
I have been on Pprune pretty much since it started (changed my un a while back). Through this website I have witnessed hundreds of fatal aviation accidents and thousands of deaths, with many of them having regulatory failure playing a major role. Sometimes, for an ex-professional aviator, who practiced - and taught - flight safety, some of the fails are truly staggering.
I'm not going to give lists, any aviation professional that studies accidents with the simple goals of maintaining and/or raising their own flight safety awareness, will by now be nodding and thinking on any one of countless accidents featuring on this website.
It does not have to be this way. Other industries have put their own regulatory house in order - it's time aviation did too.
Thanks for reading, for those that did - I've made my point. Not everyone will agree - and that's absolutley fine.
Safe flying everyone.
And of course, there are then carriers, mainstream AOC holders, that will not consider a junior FO applicant unless they have x hours in their logbook. However else do they (and the CAA) think such costly experience could be gained ?
Was Ibbotson ever considering applying to a mainstream operation ?
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 421 Likes
on
222 Posts
I’m sure I read that Dave Ibbotson had an issue with colour vision. This would bar him from a Class 1 medical pass and therefore he would not be able to hold a commercial licence.
He should not have been flying for financial gain.
He should not have been flying for financial gain.
de minimus non curat lex
Reference is made in the AAIB report about his colour vision ~ para 1.5.3 refers. Although his initial medical in 2001 identified an issue and imposed a restriction, in 2012 a more extensive examination took place which declared him ‘colour safe’ for night flying. Presumably now capable of Class 1 standard as he began groundschool for the CPL written exams?
I think this was at Cabair, but failed to complete the course/exams.
David Henderson’s logbook would make interesting reading as well, assuming it was ‘entirely accurate’.
I think this was at Cabair, but failed to complete the course/exams.
David Henderson’s logbook would make interesting reading as well, assuming it was ‘entirely accurate’.
Last edited by parkfell; 15th Nov 2021 at 14:09. Reason: Cabair details
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 421 Likes
on
222 Posts
Fair enough. But he didn't complete his CPL qualification.
Henderson, as per all of us, was disallowed by age from single pilot public transport operations - seven years ago.
Henderson, as per all of us, was disallowed by age from single pilot public transport operations - seven years ago.