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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

Old 19th Aug 2019, 15:11
  #2001 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
The 2 empty properties associated with the Keelys being used as a Registered Address adds a certain air of mystery! Dark forces at play here, methinks.
As Terence Keely is dead, it would have been extremely surprising if he had been in residence when the Daily Mail called at his mansion.

Last edited by runway30; 19th Aug 2019 at 15:40.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 15:27
  #2002 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia View Post


No it doesnít. The whole flight was illegal, CO poisoning doesnít let anybody off the hook, from the statement by the engineer/airfield owner things may be even worse. An illegal flight in an aircraft that may have been known to have airworthiness problems. I truly hope that someone goes to prison for a very long time.

Illegal CAT still goes on despite this sorry mess, reporting it achieves bugger all. This was a high profile accident, I know of at least 2 others, one with no injuries, one where just the pilot died. Hopefully Salaís death may help shine a light on all the cowboys who think that what they do is acceptable practice.

SND
SND, whilst I could see the causal link between the death and hiring an unqualified pilot if the unqualified pilot lost control because the flight was way beyond his abilities, I can't see the causal link between hiring the unqualified pilot and death due to CO poisoning unless your allegation is that a qualified pilot would have identified the leak before death occurred or are you suggesting that the Aircraft Manager knew of the CO leak and allowed the flight to take place anyway or that he was so negligent in the maintenance of the aircraft that an accident was likely to occur?
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 18:24
  #2003 (permalink)  
 
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Flags of convenience are fine until something goes wrong.

In this case it would be a miracle if the insurers pay out.

N reg allows a lot of latitude in terms of where the buck stops.

Added to the complicated registration/ trust scenario is a the fact that the USA allows UK based based aircraft to be registered via a tiny company in East Anglia. In most cases these aircraft will never again see the USA.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history

Which is fine and dandy until we see a multi million pound accident such as this one.

Who oversaw who in this tragic timeline?

Pretty much no one.

There is plenty of evidence out there that the aircraft was producing revenue for the beneficiaries of trust by transporting jockys to racecourses as well as the work it undertook with Cardiff City Football Club’s agent. No one rents their investment for nothing.

All of this grey charter work was outside the control of the UK Civil Aviation Authority.

UK road legislation only permits foreign cars to a maximum of twelve months before they have to be registered as being home based. That stops the scam of uninsured and no MOT cars being used here. A UK resident cannot use a foreign car unless they are based on the continent. (Soon to change with Brexit)

These days most global shipping is registered in countries such as Panama and Liberia so that the crewing and operations are able to exploit cheap labour and lax regulation.

Many defend the N register for private aircraft owners as it allows an easier route to aircraft modifications and flying rules. Add to that the fact it is also cheaper.

I hope this accident will close the N reg lark in the UK for good and bring regulatory powers over all UK based aircraft back under the wing of the CAA.

Last edited by Mike Flynn; 19th Aug 2019 at 18:34.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 18:30
  #2004 (permalink)  
 
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The reason for the legal requirements of flying public transport are to put in place the checks and balances that assure to the greatest degree posable that an accident wonít happen and this costs a considerable amount of money.

The reason for illegal public transport is to do things on the cheap by ignoring the rules put in place for safety.

This case illustrates perfectly the result of such practices and it matters not the particular holes in the Swiss cheese that aligned to create the inevitable result.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 18:43
  #2005 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed A and C.

The reason for the difficult exam (the knowledge) London black cab drivers have to pass is they play by a clearly defined set of rules.

On the other side of the fence are the minicabs and Ubers who are the Arthur Daleys of the taxi world.

Few checks or regulation means you get what you pay for but these people sadly undermine the legal operators business model.

If I was running an AOC operation I would be extremely angry to see cowboy pilots flying N reg aircraft on illegal charters that cannot be stopped by the CAA?




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Old 19th Aug 2019, 18:57
  #2006 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
As Terence Keely is dead, it would have been extremely surprising if he had been in residence when the Daily Mail called at his mansion.
Apologies ... I confused myself with mention of the Ďuntraced sisterí.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 19:47
  #2007 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post
Flags of convenience are fine until something goes wrong.

In this case it would be a miracle if the insurers pay out.

N reg allows a lot of latitude in terms of where the buck stops.

Added to the complicated registration/ trust scenario is a the fact that the USA allows UK based based aircraft to be registered via a tiny company in East Anglia. In most cases these aircraft will never again see the USA.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history

Which is fine and dandy until we see a multi million pound accident such as this one.

Who oversaw who in this tragic timeline?

Pretty much no one.

There is plenty of evidence out there that the aircraft was producing revenue for the beneficiaries of trust by transporting jockys to racecourses as well as the work it undertook with Cardiff City Football Clubís agent. No one rents their investment for nothing.

All of this grey charter work was outside the control of the UK Civil Aviation Authority.

UK road legislation only permits foreign cars to a maximum of twelve months before they have to be registered as being home based. That stops the scam of uninsured and no MOT cars being used here. A UK resident cannot use a foreign car unless they are based on the continent. (Soon to change with Brexit)

These days most global shipping is registered in countries such as Panama and Liberia so that the crewing and operations are able to exploit cheap labour and lax regulation.

Many defend the N register for private aircraft owners as it allows an easier route to aircraft modifications and flying rules. Add to that the fact it is also cheaper.

I hope this accident will close the N reg lark in the UK for good and bring regulatory powers over all UK based aircraft back under the wing of the CAA.
Yes all that said above makes sense.
A typical scenario might go like this.
Sir/ Madam of UK company is doing well in business and fancies increasing social standing score and gets a PPL. Has a little chat with tame bean counter as to best way to make it tax efficient Bean counter says, well we`ve got to have a good look and s sorry about mentioning that dirty word, but we must have a good look and see about VAT. W`ve also got to show some revenue from it in the books and in case you decide to pull plug on company best it be owned by a trust, so no tax man and bailiff can get their filthy mitts on it Sir/Mam. Off goes Sir/Mam to find a chap around the club who knows about these things and hey presto here is the ideal solution , a N reg job registered to a US trust corporation.
Now who would have thought some half wit would have lent the damn thing to another half wit who then let another mate borrow it who in turn it gave the keys to a heating engineer could fix its central heating as he was so keen on flying anyway and the whole lot ended up in a terrific mess. The whole thing is just so incredible, how can anyone blame such Sirs and Mams for such a string of unforseeable and unfortunate events, M`Lud.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 20:12
  #2008 (permalink)  
 
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This is a bit like renting a car.

You don’t know or care where the likes of Hertz,Sixt,Eurocar etc are based for tax or other reasons.

Everything is fine until it all goes wrong.

Trusts,limited companies etc all provide separation to allow the person who might be carrying the can to avoid liability.

However if there are people in the middle not wise enough to think about the bigger picture they can lose everything.

As I said earlier there are some complicated legal cases on the horizon in this one and
the matter of the FAA register,the CAA regulator , trusts and insurance companies are going to be a key issue.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 20:46
  #2009 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30 View Post
SND, whilst I could see the causal link between the death and hiring an unqualified pilot if the unqualified pilot lost control because the flight was way beyond his abilities, I can't see the causal link between hiring the unqualified pilot and death due to CO poisoning unless your allegation is that a qualified pilot would have identified the leak before death occurred or are you suggesting that the Aircraft Manager knew of the CO leak and allowed the flight to take place anyway or that he was so negligent in the maintenance of the aircraft that an accident was likely to occur?
CO poisoning is almost impossible to detect until itís nearly too late. However, there is no excuse, CO poisoning or not for an unqualified pilot carrying out this flight. Ibbotson knew he was unqualified, Henderson I suspect knew he was unqualified and an innocent life was lost.

Iíve spent a career in CAT operations watching cowboys taking the piss because they do it cheap, no one stops them and those of us with all the checks and balances in place lose business to these cheating s***s who laugh and lie their way out.

While I feel sorry for the loss and publicity Ibbotsonís family have suffered I hope his death may finally mean someone grasps illegal CAT and the operators by the throat and squeezes, hard.

Pilots are advertising helicopter sight seeing flights along the Thames, with 70 hours on their PPL and not knowing that for CAT a non-standard flight plan is required. Itís 20 years since I last flew a sightseeing flight, but I know what they mean to the real operators,

At a UK Airport last week I met an elderly lady whose son had paid for her to use the aircraft and pilot he hires regularly to take the mother to meet a friend. Cocky bloke in his 4 seat single and his PPL charging for a charter. Fancy putting your mumís safety in the hands of a couple of hundred hour PPL in iffy weather?

Ignore CO poisoning, it had no more relevance than a mild cold in this case. The flight was illegal and Sala was killed by people prepared to take a risk for a few quid, and from information now coming out about airworthiness, or lack of It sounds worse than at first thought.

I make no apology for my anger, I have to work my arse off to keep the staff employed and the aircraft paid for and then answer questions about how Sala died and are we safe. My passengers are, at a price, I suspect a lot of passengers in the UK now arenít.

I still await Grant Shapps response to how his ďfreeing up GAĒ has enhanced safety.

SND
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 21:09
  #2010 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sir Niall Dementia View Post


CO poisoning is almost impossible to detect until itís nearly too late. However, there is no excuse, CO poisoning or not for an unqualified pilot carrying out this flight. Ibbotson knew he was unqualified, Henderson I suspect knew he was unqualified and an innocent life was lost.

Iíve spent a career in CAT operations watching cowboys taking the piss because they do it cheap, no one stops them and those of us with all the checks and balances in place lose business to these cheating s***s who laugh and lie their way out.

While I feel sorry for the loss and publicity Ibbotsonís family have suffered I hope his death may finally mean someone grasps illegal CAT and the operators by the throat and squeezes, hard.

Pilots are advertising helicopter sight seeing flights along the Thames, with 70 hours on their PPL and not knowing that for CAT a non-standard flight plan is required. Itís 20 years since I last flew a sightseeing flight, but I know what they mean to the real operators,

At a UK Airport last week I met an elderly lady whose son had paid for her to use the aircraft and pilot he hires regularly to take the mother to meet a friend. Cocky bloke in his 4 seat single and his PPL charging for a charter. Fancy putting your mumís safety in the hands of a couple of hundred hour PPL in iffy weather?

Ignore CO poisoning, it had no more relevance than a mild cold in this case. The flight was illegal and Sala was killed by people prepared to take a risk for a few quid, and from information now coming out about airworthiness, or lack of It sounds worse than at first thought.

I make no apology for my anger, I have to work my arse off to keep the staff employed and the aircraft paid for and then answer questions about how Sala died and are we safe. My passengers are, at a price, I suspect a lot of passengers in the UK now arenít.

I still await Grant Shapps response to how his ďfreeing up GAĒ has enhanced safety.

SND
SND, I agree with everything you say.
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 21:20
  #2011 (permalink)  
 
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I second that SND
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 21:36
  #2012 (permalink)  
 
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Mike & Runway30;

thank you both, and Runway30 if I seemed aggressive it definitely was not meant against you��

SND
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 22:39
  #2013 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post
The reason for the difficult exam (the knowledge) London black cab drivers have to pass is they play by a clearly defined set of rules.

On the other side of the fence are the minicabs and Ubers who are the Arthur Daleys of the taxi world.

Few checks or regulation means you get what you pay for ...

I don't. I don't use London taxis. I'm not rich enough, and I have difficulty imagining who might be able to afford them (when not on expenses).
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Old 19th Aug 2019, 22:46
  #2014 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn View Post
Agreed A and C.

The reason for the difficult exam (the knowledge) London black cab drivers have to pass is they play by a clearly defined set of rules.

On the other side of the fence are the minicabs and Ubers who are the Arthur Daleys of the taxi world.

Few checks or regulation means you get what you pay for but these people sadly undermine the legal operators business model.

If I was running an AOC operation I would be extremely angry to see cowboy pilots flying N reg aircraft on illegal charters that cannot be stopped by the CAA?




I canít help but wonder why, if all these ĎAir-Greyí charters are being flown visibly from UK airfields the resident AOC holders have not done so.
Or have they reported them and been ignored ? Several correspondents on here seem to be well aware of whatís been going on.
Has it been reported and ignored or has it just been ignored?
Be lucky
David
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 08:50
  #2015 (permalink)  
 
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cowboy pilots flying N reg aircraft on illegal charters that cannot be stopped by the CAA?
But they CAN be stopped by the CAA.

The fact that an aircraft is on the N register does not exempt the pilot from the law or regulations of the country in which it is used.

As regards the pilot it is the same. The rules applying to my FAA licence make that crystal clear: in fact it says that where the UK regulations differ from the FAA regs, the more restrictive regs apply.

All that said: I agree entirely that those arranging or flying the type of illegal charter that this flight appears to have been should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and have exemplary penalties imposed whatever reg aircraft they use.
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 12:36
  #2016 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately the CAA is a rubber-toothed poodle when it comes to investigating, let alone prosecuting illegal ops, even when the prepetrators are AOC operators who already have Flight Ops Inspections and are thus readily investigable.

I personally know of one UK AOC holder that was chartering a King Air on a private C of A in Africa while advertising it as fully UK licenced and insured and their crew included a third 'ghost' pilot whose name was logged for all the (great many) hours over the legal maxima. One of their pilots was renowned for performing aerobatics to wow his female passengers. Indeed he was almost famous for it in the community they worked for.
This was reported but the CAA decided it was 'too difficult and too far away to investigate'.

I also had dealings with a UK scheduled airline that didn't allow Captains to write defects in tbe tech log, instead these were listed on the back of your met paperwork and left for the next guy to read, 3 pages of them on some of the fleet. Not one of the fleet of 5-6 aircraft was fit to fly in airways or in IMC due to defective deicing or radar and on some aircraft both. This could have been proven with 10 minutes work by a Flt Ops Inspector, but when reported nothing whatsoever was done despite their admitting it wasn't the first report of such chicanery they'd had filed. 10 years later I was still hearing of exactly the same going on in that company from its ex pilots. They even managed to have a wheels up landing with pax on a scheduled flight and never filed an accident report. And the CAA never did a thing despite that being reported too!

Good luck hoping they'll do anything to stop illegal charters by PPLs or on the N reg. Pigs will fly first.
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 15:32
  #2017 (permalink)  
 
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snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 17:56
  #2018 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Camargue View Post
snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.
Had this been a private owner on a private flight I might be inclined to agree.

However this was a grey charter where the passenger had expressed misgivings about the state of the aircraft.

He was an innocent party in this chain of events.

The owner of a maintenance company has also remarked it needed a lot done to bring it up to a safe standard.

Very few of us ever poke our noses in to other peoples business and instead turn a blind eye to something that may well be illegal.

From what I understand the owner of the Malibu had assigned management and charter of the aircraft to DH.

He in turn booked Ibbotson to fly the fatal flight.

However the owner must take responsibility for the safety of those who flew in it.

There are both criminal and civil actions on the horizon.

One thing for sure is any insurance policy will be invalid.







Last edited by Mike Flynn; 20th Aug 2019 at 18:07.
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 18:45
  #2019 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Camargue View Post
snd - I do agree with your post and can feel your frustation but the fact remains with the level of CO in Sala's bloodstream both were almost certainly unconcious when the plane hit the water. Had the pilot been a 20,000 hour ATPL the end result would be the same (but we wouldnt know the cause as the plane would have more likely turfed in from fl150 and no bodies would have been found.) This doesnt change the legality of the flight but the cause of the crash was not down to a lack of qualifications.
But would a 20.000 ATPL fly an aircraft of that type with no CO sensor of any kind? Flown many hours in light singles but never without a CO sensor
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Old 20th Aug 2019, 19:57
  #2020 (permalink)  
 
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Further to my original post about what a PPL student should do, on a lesson today I noticed the aircraft is fitted with a stick on CO detector (changing colour dot type). I think this is probably best, as you may not hear an alarm.

I will certainly be checking it more frequently going forward......
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