Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Cessna 414 Down in Santa Ana, California

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Cessna 414 Down in Santa Ana, California

Old 6th Aug 2018, 13:48
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 1,057
Received 62 Likes on 23 Posts
Unhappy Cessna 414 Down in Santa Ana, California

Aircraft Down in Staples Parking Lot

Dashcam Video

Happened yesterday. English-as-a-second-language witness stated that "The airplane was twirling down." A stall/spin LOC accident, I fear. RIP victims and condolences to surviving family members.

- Ed

Last edited by cavuman1; 6th Aug 2018 at 13:57. Reason: Add Link
cavuman1 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2018, 14:52
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: US/EU
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dramatic footage. Sure seems to be a stall, but I wonder what the actual emergency was that they called in.

If this is correct, the owner of the plane is the United States Department Of Interior:

Aircraft Data N727, 1982 Cessna A185F Skywagon 185 C/N 18504371
Mark in CA is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2018, 15:27
  #3 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,942
Received 517 Likes on 297 Posts
Mark, that's a different aircraft, a Cessna 185.
treadigraph is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2018, 15:48
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Texas
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Emergency declared just a minut before. Flightaware shows last recorded at 1000' and 107 knots. What is blue line on a 414?
Hoppe is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2018, 16:16
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I was staying in the Crowne Plaza just down the road at the beginning of June. It’s lucky there were no casualties on the ground because South Coast Plaza across the road is a really busy mall. From the pictures I’ve seen I can’t see any evidence of fire.
runway30 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2018, 16:22
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: US/EU
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by treadigraph
Mark, that's a different aircraft, a Cessna 185.
My bad. The full tail number is 727RP. The RP wasn't obvious from the photos. Registered to a charter company in San Francisco.
Mark in CA is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2018, 17:53
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Lakeside
Posts: 534
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Hoppe
Emergency declared just a minut before. Flightaware shows last recorded at 1000' and 107 knots. What is blue line on a 414?
Flown that route. With a mayday one minute prior, and no fire, my surmise is low/no fuel.
Concours77 is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2018, 20:05
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Texas
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Concours77


Flown that route. With a mayday one minute prior, and no fire, my surmise is low/no fuel.
Doubt it. Did you see the video? He came down like a lawn dart, almost vertical.
Hoppe is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2018, 20:27
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Near Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 1,106
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Hoppe
Flightaware shows last recorded at 1000' and 107 knots. What is blue line on a 414?
110kt if I remember correctly. But there are so many modifications for these planes (e.g. RAM conversion or vortex generators) that one really must look it up for each individual airframe. And then these flightaware speeds are ground speeds, not airspeeds and not very precise either.
what next is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2018, 20:47
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: EDDS
Age: 54
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Spins frequently do start with a roll over with extreme descent. Recovery may look as what we could see in the videos available at present (the last few seconds, not showing how the dive started).

The accident site doesn‘t look like if there was plenty of fuel spilled. If there was fuel, a fire would have been very likely with a high impact crash like that.

C414 VYSE is 108 KIAS and VS1 is about 80 KIAS without vortex generators (which most C414s do have).
AndiKunzi is offline  
Old 6th Aug 2018, 22:19
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Lakeside
Posts: 534
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Howdy

Originally Posted by Hoppe


Doubt it. Did you see the video? He came down like a lawn dart, almost vertical.
There were two videos. The second one showed what may have been a partial recovery. I saw rapid nose up, then lost the aircraft when it was probably 100agl? May have restalled.

Crash site showed a full length section, (starboard fuselage?), with most windows intact. Not much horizontal on impact, so the nose up may only have added some extra pancake. No lawn dart, not at that airspeed, the airframe would have been demolished. Completely.

imo.

btw, what did you think I was trying to say? That running out of fuel and losing the flight path cannot result in a near vertical impact?

Last edited by Concours77; 6th Aug 2018 at 22:42.
Concours77 is offline  
Old 7th Aug 2018, 10:11
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My brother has the 425 and I can't imagine getting it out of a spin from 1000 feet. It's so fast and slick that even with that big tail fin it's going to take a couple thousand feet to recover. What I see in the video sure looks like a spin to me. The other puzzling thing to me is the twin engine failure. I don't see how you run out of fuel in both engines at the same time, so I would guess one failed, then the turn into the dead engine may have caused excessive control input as the second engine failed. I do spins in approved aircraft and I'd hate to spin that beast.
Deadstick126 is offline  
Old 8th Aug 2018, 12:50
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Deadstick126
My brother has the 425 and I can't imagine getting it out of a spin from 1000 feet. It's so fast and slick that even with that big tail fin it's going to take a couple thousand feet to recover. What I see in the video sure looks like a spin to me. The other puzzling thing to me is the twin engine failure. I don't see how you run out of fuel in both engines at the same time, so I would guess one failed, then the turn into the dead engine may have caused excessive control input as the second engine failed. I do spins in approved aircraft and I'd hate to spin that beast.
We don’t know all the circumstances so I’m not trying to criticise this particular pilot and I have never experienced a double engine failure but surely you are going to have to severely mishandle the controls to get yourself in a spin?
runway30 is offline  
Old 9th Aug 2018, 09:07
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by runway30


We don’t know all the circumstances so I’m not trying to criticise this particular pilot and I have never experienced a double engine failure but surely you are going to have to severely mishandle the controls to get yourself in a spin?
Absolutely! But think about being in a right turn and the right engine fails. Suddenly you're skidding from the asymmetrical thrust now coming from the left engine. The big four bladed prop on the right engine is inducing severe drag and the airplane becomes very difficult to control. As you start to break into the spin the left engine quits and now you're banked hard right, full left aileron (more drag) and the airplane gives it up and around you go. Recovery is yoke neutral, full left rudder. The airplane is so slick that it would take a couple of thousand feet to stop the rotation and level out. That's test pilot stuff. The average pilot today has very little or no spin training and would likely not react in time to prevent it. Then insufficient altitude for recovery and it's over.
Deadstick126 is offline  
Old 9th Aug 2018, 13:17
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by Deadstick126
Absolutely! But think about being in a right turn and the right engine fails. Suddenly you're skidding from the asymmetrical thrust now coming from the left engine. The big four bladed prop on the right engine is inducing severe drag and the airplane becomes very difficult to control. As you start to break into the spin the left engine quits and now you're banked hard right, full left aileron (more drag) and the airplane gives it up and around you go. Recovery is yoke neutral, full left rudder. The airplane is so slick that it would take a couple of thousand feet to stop the rotation and level out. That's test pilot stuff. The average pilot today has very little or no spin training and would likely not react in time to prevent it. Then insufficient altitude for recovery and it's over.
I can’t see that happening if you make the correct rudder inputs which after my twin training became instinctive. On the other hand if you made a steep turn towards the airfield and allowed the speed to bleed off? Just conjecture because we don’t know what happened. I wonder how many twin pilots know their best gliding speed? I think I would have gone for a landing on the 405 freeway as another Cessna twin did last year after experiencing an engine failure after take off.
runway30 is offline  
Old 10th Aug 2018, 15:59
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Lakeside
Posts: 534
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Flying in to this airport from NoCal needs attention. With five aboard and a boring drone down the valley, once descending into the valley over the Big Bear, the pace needs focus. The valley is a surprise after the boring valley, and the cockpit environment can get busy. Excitement of the expectation of a fun convention, the demands of a complex aircraft, and an adjustment to a busy airborne environment, a bad time to get behind. If the aircraft was a charter, or a rental, time in type would be a factor. A friend owned a 414 and also had a 440. He loved the turbine, and was trying to sell the piston twin.

I don’t like to rely on the eyewitnesses, but “sputtering” is a troubling word. Fuel issues? Loss of an engine should not have been fatal, of course, but just to say it may have come at the “wrong time”. Low, and slow, crowded airspace, after a drone down valley? Such a tragic thing. The Mayday was more likely an engine failure, not fuel starvation, giving the pilot the benefit of the doubt. Not much to go on yet. Concord was my home and the airfield was my base. Lost a friend in a crash at the airfield in the eighties. Flying a Baron, he was returning from LA.

Best
concours
Concours77 is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2018, 01:23
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: California
Posts: 282
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Concours77
Flying in to this airport from NoCal needs attention. With five aboard and a boring drone down the valley, once descending into the valley over the Big Bear, the pace needs focus. The valley is a surprise after the boring valley, and the cockpit environment can get busy. Excitement of the expectation of a fun convention, the demands of a complex aircraft, and an adjustment to a busy airborne environment, a bad time to get behind. If the aircraft was a charter, or a rental, time in type would be a factor. A friend owned a 414 and also had a 440. He loved the turbine, and was trying to sell the piston twin.

I don’t like to rely on the eyewitnesses, but “sputtering” is a troubling word. Fuel issues? Loss of an engine should not have been fatal, of course, but just to say it may have come at the “wrong time”. Low, and slow, crowded airspace, after a drone down valley? Such a tragic thing. The Mayday was more likely an engine failure, not fuel starvation, giving the pilot the benefit of the doubt. Not much to go on yet. Concord was my home and the airfield was my base. Lost a friend in a crash at the airfield in the eighties. Flying a Baron, he was returning from LA.

Best
concours
Have you even read this thread? Jesus dude. Flight came from Catalina direction, not the north as you say.
ksjc is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2018, 02:00
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 639
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally Posted by ksjc


Have you even read this thread? Jesus dude. Flight came from Catalina direction, not the north as you say.
Flight departed CCR which I believe is in North California. It coasted out south of Ventura then made a left turn at Catalina for the south west arrival over Huntington Pier.


Which when they crashed would have put them downwind for 20R. If one engine had failed, I know this aircraft has pretty poor single engine performance but it should have been drama free to complete the circuit and land. If both engines stopped, well that’s something different. Landing from downwind after an engine failure is something I used to practice in singles. In my view, in a twin, where he was, if both engines had stopped, not a hope.
runway30 is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2018, 03:36
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Lakeside
Posts: 534
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
CCR is a very busy GA field that at one time had scheduled service flying the 727. The airfield is located in Concord, California. My assumption was he flew direct. Apologies if he had a different route, I missed that. If he was flying other than direct, and lengthened his flight time, might bring fuel issues back into the realm of possibilities.

DeCaf bud
Concours77 is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2018, 09:31
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N727RP
Deadstick126 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.