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ATR 72 Icing & Loss of Control - Recovered

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ATR 72 Icing & Loss of Control - Recovered

Old 21st Dec 2017, 11:26
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn't say the ATR's crap.....But no doubt it's got more than its fair share of gotchas.

I had about 1,400 hours on both 42 and 72 spread over about 15 years, on and off, and it was never amongst my favourites.

I never experienced the iceing incident we're discussing here, but I do remember during the TR being warned about it. However, if you've never experienced it and, like me, about the best you can remember how to deal with it is the page number in the manual, then I can have some sympathies for the crew here when you're faced with a situation you've never experienced before and you do what seems ' appropriate ' while your colleague is desperately trying to find the page in the manual.

And just a thought....If airframers can create and install the automatics for detecting problems such as this one and warn you on the various displays, why can't they extend that functionality to either display the instructions written in the Ops Manual or to automatically initiate the required actions and then inform the crew what and why the machine's doing what its doing through the displays with a simple ' accept ' or ' reject ' for the crew.

Within the grand scheme of things, that wouldn't be an impossibly expensive fit into new machines and , depending on the actual age / spec of the machine involved, perhaps also not an impossibly expensive upgrade to older machines.
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 21:34
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Well, ATR has good points : you fly manually very often, there is no "Auto-power", you remain aware of icing condition during your whole carreer and you have one of the best upset recovery training.
Comparing to some other threads of the forum where it is said that some companies do not allow manual flying, ATR is a very good value
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Old 21st Dec 2017, 22:45
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Bottom line...never, EVER let your airspeed get too slow, even if the clear air is close above and you really want to climb up to it. Maintain a safe airspeed(as explained in the publications) and deal with whatever consequences that are the result. The only overriding factor would be terrain. And increase the speed even more when a turn is required which must be in low bank. And keep the autopilot off as well.

Last edited by JammedStab; 22nd Dec 2017 at 00:01.
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 08:09
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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IIRC , the first ATR to be lost re ice / stall was in 1987 over the Alps ..
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 11:53
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Scary video that aerocaribbean, anyone know what happened?
They seemed to reggain normal attitude and speed but the plane keeps upsetting.
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 13:32
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bonway View Post
American Eagle 4184 from Indianapolis to Chicago was the first such incident involving an ATR 72. Following this Aérospatiale did extensive icing testing and found the aircraft safe for icing conditions with a mod including larger de-icing boots.
I recommend to you the book "Unheeded Warning, The Inside Story of American Eagle Flight 4184", published in 1996, by Stephen A. Fredrick, former American Eagle ATR pilot.

The ATR 42 and ATR 72 has the same wing design.

From the NTSB report available at:

http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online...s/AAR96-01.pdf

1.16.2
Previous ATR 42 and 72 Incidents/Accidents
The service histories of the ATR 42 and 72 airplanes were examined by the Safety Board, with an emphasis placed on previous roll control incidents. Twenty-four roll control incidents were found to have been reported since 1986, all of which involved the ATR 42. The Safety Board determined that 13 of the 24 roll control incidents were related to icing conditions. Of these 13 icing-related incidents, the following 5 occurred in weather conditions consistent with freezing drizzle/freezing rain, and involved varying degrees of uncommanded aileron deflections with subsequent roll excursions:

• AMR Eagle/Simmons Airlines at Mosinee, Wisconsin, December 22, 1988;
• Air Mauritius over the Indian Ocean, April 17, 1991;
• Ryan Air over Ireland, August 11, 1991;
• Continental Express at Newark, New Jersey, March 4, 1993;
• Continental Express at Burlington, Massachusetts, January 28, 1994.


From the NTSB:

NTSB Safety Recommendation A-94-182

THE NTSB RECOMMENDS THAT THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION: PROHIBIT THE INTENTIONAL OPERATION OF ATR-42 AND ATR-72 AIRPLANES IN KNOWN OR REPORTED ICING CONDITIONS UNTIL THE EFFECT OF UPPER WING SURFACE ICE ON THE FLYING QUALITIES AND AILERON HINGE MOMENT CHARACTERISTICS ARE EXAMINED FURTHER AS RECOMMENDED IN A-94-181 AND IT IS DETERMINED THAT THE AIRPLANES EXHIBIT SATISFACTORY FLIGHT CHARACTERISTICS. (URGENT)

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Old 24th Dec 2017, 19:23
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MD83FO View Post
Scary video that aerocaribbean, anyone know what happened?
They seemed to reggain normal attitude and speed but the plane keeps upsetting.
So was the Italian one. The safety board in my country read out the recorders and played it for us many years ago on a tour, CVR and all. Seeing loss of control animations like these two should be required viewing for all ATR pilots as it appears to be a complete loss of control.

The flaps 15 selection(a memory item) may be the key to regaining control and I see that it was done with this incident. Perhaps if in ice, quietly remind yourself to yell(or select) flaps 15 if control is lost as panic mode and loss of clear thinking could set in once control is lost.
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Old 24th Dec 2017, 20:31
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=20021221-0

final report in the link
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 11:11
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Icing

Two weeks ago I climbed a mountain in ireland to paraglide, I was shocked by the icing on a wire fence and barbed wire. The former was approx a blade of 3mm x 20 mm which reminded me of a lucky escape.
As we know, no aircraft is certified for flight in severe icing and most of us get away with the occasional venture into its’ grips.
Fly barber pole, max descent rate and stay clean as long as possible.
Twice I had it with significant ice build up on our heated windshields but at some time you have to slow down and we were still in the heavy accretion layer.
We kept 250 knots until we were on the glide slope and at the marker it was drop the gear followed by a tail shot (we had airframe and tailplane deice but not both together).
I was ordered NOT to do the tail shot. Night, turbulence and the days when the captain was the captain. I always read accident reports and knew of two Viscounts? Which had gone in vertically when the tailplane stalled when land flap had been deployed.
Too late to argue so I kept one hand adjacent to the flap lever and one ready to push the stick into the panel at the first sign of vibration.
The skipper kept the speed up all the way to the flare...somewhere around flap limiting speed.
Fortunately it didn’t happen but the rime ice on the fence brought it back at How there but the grace of dog...
Attached Images
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 14:29
  #30 (permalink)  

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I've only known one turbo-prop that could carry ice, and that was the F27. It could pick up layers of it and still fly. Mind you, that was a very honest, "Ronseal" aeroplane. It did what it said on the tin.
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Old 25th Dec 2017, 22:12
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by blind pew View Post
when the tailplane stalled when land flap had been deployed..
After severe icing, if flaps have been extended for stall recovery, and if there is still signs of ice accretion, Full flaps must not be used to prevent wing downwash and tail stall.

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Old 26th Dec 2017, 17:45
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Not on the DC9 in 1980s.
We were still in severe icing.
I had read of the tailplane stall in another company accident bulletin in the 70s who operated them as well; secondly in flight magazine.
Maybe it hadn’t happened to a nine..and I didn’t want to be the first guy to try it and have my head go through my sphincter.

In those years we didn’t have the “ luxury” of the internet and getting accident and incident reports were often the prerogative of management and the unions.
Both the Munich and Staines disasters might have been avoided if the crews had had reports which were routinely available.
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Old 28th Dec 2017, 21:34
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Antice

Never having flown the ATR I am not qualified to comment. However, the thread seems to have drifted to ant-ice in general and, as this is a forum from which, in the absence now of a company “horror comic”, many of the latest generation of pilots will gather a wealth of other people’s experience. I am well into my dotage, so can assure Blind Pew that, even with hindsight, I do not think that either Munich or Staines would have been avoided. But, that aside, for what it is worth, having completed the 757 course in its early days, I was actually quite worried about its ability to fly in icing conditions. The old ARB course went into considerable detail but the Boeing one seemed to concentrate on “if its green, go. If its amber, watch it. If its red, don’t go (or make your own arrangements!).
Flying into Helsinki one winter’s afternoon, we spent a good five minutes descending on glide whilst in potential icing conditions. There was a slight build –up on the windscreen wipers (the Boeing indicator) and I switched on the wing antice as a precaution. We landed without incident, but the engineer came upstairs and asked me come outside. He showed me an horrific sight. The leading edges of the wings and tailplane, apart from a few (symmetrical) surfaces, were clothed in baulks of ice the size of railway sleepers. One by one they disengaged themselves and fell to the ground with resounding crashes.
Boeing were right – it did fly! (Much to my surprise.)
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Old 29th Dec 2017, 04:10
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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airplanes with variable incidence stabilizers are not as prone to tailplane stalls as are those with fixed stabilizers and trimmable elevators
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Old 30th Dec 2017, 14:52
  #35 (permalink)  
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Too late to argue so I kept one hand adjacent to the flap lever and one ready to push the stick into the panel at the first sign of vibration.

So which way is the tail loaded? And which way will it go if it stalls?

I flew the ATR as a 'retirement job' and while it took me some weeks to settle on the aircraft, it was eventually erm, containable. One had to be vigilant from the get-go. I used to insist on opening the tail for my first flight of the day. I once found the control lines covered in a mass of mud and grot, the entire void looked as though it had been exposed to a ploughed field. It was easy to imagine it giving me the same grief as the Shed* (below)

I think most of us would agree pre-flighting an aircraft starts at a hundred yards.


*The Shed. I spent a memorable 25 minutes - seemed like hours - flying that species with not a smidgen of elevator movement . . . along with a solid trim wheel. I briefed on mobilizing the SLF and worked with London to keep me away from populated areas. The elevators came free at 500'. Saved my lassie from running down the back. It was astonishing how much fun it was - nothing worse that a boring flight.

They used to get an emulsion of grease and water around the control runs and didn't take long to freeze them solid.
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Old 9th Jan 2018, 03:25
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets View Post
So which way is the tail loaded? And which way will it go if it stalls?
Is there any commercial or civil aircraft with a conventional wing/tail configuration in which the tail produces positive lift?
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Old 9th Jan 2018, 06:20
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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I doubt any do in normal flight regimes, but in a Vmo emergency descent with a THS (which do have "nose-down" trim of 2-4 degrees available) it might happen, to hold the nose down. Possibly also requiring a light GW and/or an aft CG.

More: Which aircraft have pos/neg elevator lift?
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Old 9th Jan 2018, 22:23
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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My father was a career pilot and always told me that if the aircraft looked good , it flew good. As a career pilot I rode the jump seat on an ATR 72 ONCE, on a CAVU day. . Never again!

Only worse aircraft in the world is the Jetstream 31, 007 should have died !

Last edited by bloom; 9th Jan 2018 at 22:40.
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Old 9th Jan 2018, 22:35
  #39 (permalink)  
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Is there any commercial or civil aircraft with a conventional wing/tail configuration in which the tail produces positive lift?
Yes, it was a rhetorical question, though I felt, germane.
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Old 3rd Jan 2020, 08:13
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Herod View Post
I've only known one turbo-prop that could carry ice, and that was the F27. It could pick up layers of it and still fly. Mind you, that was a very honest, "Ronseal" aeroplane. It did what it said on the tin.
The Saab 2000 also handles ice very well
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