Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Plane crashes after takeoff in northern Saskatchewan 25 people on board

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Plane crashes after takeoff in northern Saskatchewan 25 people on board

Old 23rd Dec 2017, 05:28
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,102
Umm - yes. In going through the operational policies, they may have found a violation or problem serious enough for grounding with immediate effect, with 90% (or 50% or 30%) of the policies yet to be examined.
pattern_is_full is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2017, 07:36
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Tent
Posts: 792
Do ops manuals need not be approved by the "regulator" in Canada and are regular audits not carried out on all operators in Canada?
Bend alot is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2017, 07:36
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 801
It's the politicians' syllogism:

We must be seen to be doing something
This is something
Lets do it.

(paraphrased from Yes Minister)
Chris2303 is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2017, 14:27
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: NV USA
Posts: 260
citing deficiencies in the companyís operational control system.

It said such systems ensure a company is following safety rules for dispatching staff and aircraft.
This would imply that the aircraft/flight did not have a legal dispatch release or the crew was not legal for the flight (flight hours or duty).
Operational control in general cover items such as aircraft airworthiness, weight and balance program, de-ice program, crew tracking, dispatch release/weather.
Not indicative of cause of crash but overall health of the airline.
cappt is offline  
Old 23rd Dec 2017, 15:03
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska, PNG, etc.
Age: 58
Posts: 1,550
This. Just because they haven't issued a determination of the cause of the accident doesn't mean that they didn't discover some serious organizational deficiencies once they started looking into things.
A Squared is offline  
Old 27th Dec 2017, 20:36
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hadlow
Age: 58
Posts: 595
Now being reported that a pax has died from injuries sustained.
Super VC-10 is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2017, 00:29
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Canada
Age: 66
Posts: 261
The board said the cause of the crash has not been determined and investigators are still looking at weather conditions, runway length, aircraft maintenance, pilot training and operational policies.

Transport Canada said it does not hesitate to take action when regulatory non-compliance is identified and the department will continue to monitor West Wind Aviationís actions as it works towards compliance with aviation safety regulations."


Still looking at operational policies, but have grounded the airline!
Bendy:

Your first quote is attributed to the Transportation Safety Board (who are NOT the regulators).

Your second quote is attributed to Transport Canada (who IS the regulator).

Two quite separate and distinct entities. But hey, lets not let facts obscure a good rant eh?
604guy is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2017, 03:27
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Yellowknife, NT, Canada
Posts: 6
Allegedly the aircraft was overweight and they didn't backtrack the full length.
Tundra Tire is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2017, 06:24
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 99
Various posts/speculation re whether overweight, with only 25 aboard:

Allegedly the aircraft was overweight and they didn't backtrack the full length.
At 25 occupants - if they did not load additional stuff into the cabin it was hardly overloaded. Not even with max fuel load.
Yes, they routinely haul mail and freight.

The isolated community of Fond-du-Lac is not served by an all-weather road nor any railroad, so air service is crucial. Passenger loads are occasionally reduced to carry more freight.
Presumably no one (who actually knows) can answer that question publicly now.

But can anyone clarify why might be flying lot of heavy freight OUT of Fond-du-Lac during winter?

What may be flying in seems easy to conceive. (mail, fuel, food, a wide range of supplies)

But what is outbound?

Heavy machinery for repair? Heavy pressurized cylinders to be refilled?

Something mined or otherwise produced in the region?

Per Wikipedia, "The main enterprise today in Fond du Lac is working in the mineral and other resource extraction business."

But unless item extracted is relatively valuable given size, weight, or perishable, would they not stockpile until spring when could ship by barge or other means?

Even if room (physically and weightwise) because outbound flight not full of pax, wouldn't the fuel cost be rather high, unless a valuable cargo, or something that can't wait, or perhaps some arrangement to ensure regular pax service even if some flights might be half-empty.

Anyone knowledgable?
Passenger 389 is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2017, 06:58
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: In the back of a bus
Posts: 1,003
Re pax seating.

Most turboprops have a pax distribution chart which the flight crew will advise the flight attendant when needed. S/he will then place placards 'Do Not Occupy' on seats to ensure correct pax distribution for takeoff and then check this again while doing the headcount.

So I doubt the pax just sat wherever they wanted, especially on such a light load.
givemewings is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2017, 14:00
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Wherever I go, there I am
Age: 41
Posts: 726
Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post
Do ops manuals need not be approved by the "regulator" in Canada and are regular audits not carried out on all operators in Canada?
Yes, ops manuals are approved by Transport Canada (TC). However, TC is severely understaffed yet must meet maximum service level times - 90 days for a manual approval - so there are times where mistakes are not caught. This is not the same as saying that TC allows illegal references or procedures though. Despite their reputation, I've found the majority of TC inspectors I've worked with over the years are professionals who wish they had more time to work with the airlines they are charged with overseeing. But when one has thirty companies to oversee over a geographical region larger than Europe, it makes it hard (and expensive) to go see them all, especially when one has other duties thrown upon them by rotating governments.

As far as audits go, you can thank SMS for destroying those. As great as SMS is and can be, one downside is that TC now spends its limited monetary resources on those companies who need more oversight at the expense of "good" companies. This results in some air operators not seeing their TC Principle Operations Inspector (POI) for up to three years. A lot of garbage can get into ops manuals, ops control systems, SOPs, etc in a three-year period that suddenly turns a great company into a problem company, for no other reason than time has passed.
+TSRA is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2017, 14:35
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,306
TSRA, I wish the rest of my fellow operators shared your glowing view of Transport Canada, but our experience is that with a few exceptions the inspectors are the dregs of the industry, and I stress again there are some good ones but they are the exceptions, the competent ones having retired for the most part, and given the pilot shortage I doubt that there is a pool of first class replacements around, the industry needs a house cleaning but there just doesn't seem to be many willing to be part of Transport given the standards of those employed within the organisation, from the nation which was a world leader in the field, we have, along with other nations, fallen on hard times and the solution to the mess will be hard to achieve, but lets hope the problems are solved!
clunckdriver is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2017, 15:10
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Wherever I go, there I am
Age: 41
Posts: 726
Perhaps I've just been lucky there clunckdriver, as I know the opposite end of the spectrum does exist and I have no doubt the problems at TC will only get worse as the experience level drops.

I'd say better than 85% of the inspectors I've dealt with were of the older generation, having spent decades in the industry before moving over to TC. I have the good fortune of having gone back to the line before I met many of the current crop of "failed flight instructor inspectors," so am fortunate to say the blood lost from banging my head on my desk was more often a brain fart on my end rather than the stupidity of an inspector. Not always, of course, but I only met two inspectors who I would not have been sad to see hit the pavement three floors down, having done a swan dive from my office and not of their own volition.

I would consider a position at TC when I'm done flying, were it not for the politics that I know are going to be far worse than that I see at the union I pay dues into.
+TSRA is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2017, 00:02
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southern Europe
Posts: 270
At 25 occupants - if they did not load additional stuff into the cabin it was hardly overloaded. Not even with max fuel load.
With 25 Pax + Max Fuel Load = it will be overloaded

Data from an ATR42-320 :
MTOW = 16900 kgs
Empty Weight = 10900 kgs
Max Fuel = 4500 kgs

There would be approx. 1500 kgs left available for Payload. 25 Pax will weigh more that 1500 kgs
If you prefer "pounds", just multiply the above values by 2.2
zerograv is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2017, 04:02
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska, PNG, etc.
Age: 58
Posts: 1,550
Well, yeah, but who departs a remote station on a 2 1/2 hr flight for their main operations base with 8 hours of fuel on board?
A Squared is offline  
Old 29th Dec 2017, 04:20
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,309
Phoenix Payroll Fiasco

Many federal government employees are not getting paid or are being overpaid. A bunch have left.

I have heard that certain TC regional offices have been depleted as employees have found other employment.
RatherBeFlying is offline  
Old 31st Dec 2017, 17:51
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: yyz
Posts: 32
#1 management is cheap(can be said for any company)
#2 fuel in zfd? Is dear(why would you pay the price for fuel in a remote station)
#3 unsure but they probably use the jepps or apg charts. They run a winter road (ice) from stoney all the way to UCity, fairly sure anything (heavy) goes by truck
#4 low temps make for better performance

Used to go in and out of there 10 times a week, during the summer reduced loads, below 10c we were pretty much mgtow

Also Im pretty sure that ww used to stop at least once (ypa)on the return if not twice(ysf)
So why would you need all that fuel?. I think this is simply an issue of weather surface contamination/engine icing

Originally Posted by old,not bold View Post
I wonder if the passengers' survival resulted partly from them being distributed to a particular area (eg aft) for weight and balance reasons.....would that be necessary in an ATR 42?
Because these aircraft are operated in a combi configuration, the pax are always in the back. Like the previous 748, they can load bags/freight in front or back for cg and loading
rigpiggy is offline  
Old 1st Jan 2018, 06:45
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska, PNG, etc.
Age: 58
Posts: 1,550
Originally Posted by rigpiggy View Post
Also Im pretty sure that ww used to stop at least once (ypa)on the return if not twice(ysf)
It was Flight 280. If I'm reading their flight schedule correctly, it would have stopped at Stony Rapids, La Ronge Prince Albert and Saskatoon. Looks like 2:45 of taxiing and flying.
A Squared is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2018, 04:40
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: yyz
Posts: 32
Yes, but they would refuel in stoney laronge or prince albert. The fuel in zfd isnt sampled daily, i am not sure if the tanks belong to the mnr for sask govt planes(medevac and firebombing) as the cfs doesn't show any fuelling contractor
rigpiggy is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2018, 05:38
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska, PNG, etc.
Age: 58
Posts: 1,550
Could be. I'm not trying to claim that they had a lot of fuel on board.
A Squared is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.