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Aborted takeoff in Glider

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Aborted takeoff in Glider

Old 10th Oct 2017, 17:03
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Originally Posted by dsc810
Had the video not been 'shared' all we would have seen or indeed heard is a bare two line summary

What part of, '...not given his consent for the dissemination of this video' and 'His family are distressed.' do you not understand? The guy is still in hospital.

His club asked if they could use this video for training purposes which the pilot, being the decent person he is agreed to, however he did not agree for it to be published or passed around for people to post on social media (Facebook for Christ's sake!) - Have you see the sh1t storm of nonsense that's been posted on Facebook about this accident? Given time I'm sure he will want it to be used for training purposes, but until then it should be down to his discretion.
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Old 10th Oct 2017, 19:24
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I think this thread has some good imput, and training purposes can be served by reading about potential accidents on airtow.

However I think we could do without the video.
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Old 10th Oct 2017, 19:45
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs up Excellent Training Video

The first time I viewed the video I did not notice the spoiler handle sneaking back. This can happen to any of us by human error or mechanical forces. The video shows how easy it is not to catch on to an insidious situation.

I would show it to pre solo students and also play a video of a canopy opening on tow.

Lastly I know three instructors who wrote off gliders when solo. Hopefully the accident pilot will some day be in the back seat.
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Old 10th Oct 2017, 20:49
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Mary, you appear to miss the point of using real-life videos as training aids. You can read about stuff 'till the cows come home, but seeing an actual video of a real event brings home just how these things can happen,

It's why many industries, and safety-conscious organisations such as Network Rail, spend a lot of money paying specialist companies to produce training videos of 'set up' situations.

Even set-up scenarios have far more impact as learning devices than merely reading about incidents. REAL incidents, like this, are even more valuable as lessons to us all as to just how easily these things can bite us. Seeing the video is many more times more valuable as a leaning aid than merely reading an accident report.
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Old 10th Oct 2017, 21:03
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Top marks to the tuggie for coming clean on this. Tug pilots need balls ( even if they are female ) they always hang on and get you to a safe height if they can, the vast majority are glider pilots themselves. But there comes to a point where their own safety gets to the dangerous point I was lucky having only got dumped once at 50 ft, no problem, but several could have gone wrong if the tug had lost power.
Sometimes sh1t happens and mistakes are made, we are trained to be perfect, but in my 30 years of gliding have known 5 fatalities and a lot more human errors that have got away with it without injury. Initially I didn't realise it was a K13 2 seater, if that is correct who was in the back, hopefully not an instructor!!.

There by the grace of God go I
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 07:02
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Mary's Meager's post No 19 is misleading
She was NOT the tug pilot on THIS incident
Her post refers to a totally different incident in which she was towing as a tug pilot which was indeed a K13.
I've heard Mary's story of this one before.

The glider in THIS incident was a Puchacz - also a 2 seater. As far as we are aware there was no one in the back - its was being flown solo.
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 07:09
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Originally Posted by Deltasierra010
Top marks to the tuggie for coming clean on this. Tug pilots need balls ( even if they are female ) they always hang on and get you to a safe height if they can, the vast majority are glider pilots themselves. But there comes to a point where their own safety gets to the dangerous point I was lucky having only got dumped once at 50 ft, no problem, but several could have gone wrong if the tug had lost power.
Sometimes sh1t happens and mistakes are made, we are trained to be perfect, but in my 30 years of gliding have known 5 fatalities and a lot more human errors that have got away with it without injury. Initially I didn't realise it was a K13 2 seater, if that is correct who was in the back, hopefully not an instructor!!.

There by the grace of God go I
I think Mary was saying she had been in that position on the other end of the rope... it certainly wasnt a k13!
I can see the family's distress but the learning value IS huge.
Gliderpilot.net rarely comments on glider accidents, they appear in s&g with a brief analysis,
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 07:26
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to clarify...

Deltasierra, gliderkev has got it right. my earlier post did not refer to this accident video, which was apparently a Puchaz being flown solo. Also, my earlier post refers to an event at Shenington. All participants in that incident were women! Nobody hurt, nothing damanged.

But the video that leads off this thread is indeed a good warning in every way.
You can clearly see the airbrake handle moving back on its own. The pilot has been unaware.

I was an instructor before becoming a tuggie; and insisted my students to look around at the wings if something seem wrong. In fact I would demonstrate to them how useful this lookout is while the student and glider are sitting on the ground while I held the wingtip. The beginner should practice this when still flying with an instructor, in my opinion.

Flying an early solo with a video camera is also asking for embarassment.

Leave it on the ground.
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 07:51
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Originally Posted by snapper1
MODS,
I know this pilot. He has not given his consent for the dissemination of this video.
Having read the thread the guy was alone in the cockpit, so presumably the camera was his, he placed it and set it running.
At the end he didn't seem incapacitated so how did the video get out and into the public domain? Shouldn't the pilot and/or his family be speaking to Steven Waitekaitis if they want it taken down.

That aside it seems to me an excellent illustration of how things can go wrong when things get busy.
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 08:00
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There is something to be said for starting an aerotow with the airbrakes out, retracting them as the tug starts to move you forward. Your hand can then move to the the release.

When I was a tug pilot I dumped about half a dozen people. A couple for airbrakes and the rest for being too far out of position. If possible you drop the airbrakes open people close in on a base leg or in front of an easy field. I was able to do this because the majority of our tugs were 180 HP. With less power you will have less options. But you drop the out of position people just before you really need to and they will have to fend for themselves.

Mary, taking your camera with you may lead to embarrassment but it may also allow a great deal of illumination, proper post flight critique and some big learning moments.

PM
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 08:09
  #31 (permalink)  
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I haven't flown a glider for over 20 years so don't remember much. In the video at about 5 seconds he moves his hand forward under the airbrake lever and you can see it gets moved upwards by a gnats. Is that enough to unlock them?
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 10:04
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Originally Posted by Chuck Glider
At the end he didn't seem incapacitated so how did the video get out and into the public domain? Shouldn't the pilot and/or his family be speaking to Steven Waitekaitis if they want it taken down.
From reading the FB posts, he's still in hospital 6 weeks on. The gliding club apparently asked if they could use the video internally for training - it escaped from there...
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 11:38
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I'd be interested in the bit before the film clip starts.
That would show the preflight checks being done - so we could see where the "brakes closed and locked" bit was missed.
I'll bet it was some form of distraction, interruption, hold up/delay in the launch for some reason or dare I even suggest it that switching on the camera might have the distraction.
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 12:11
  #34 (permalink)  
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From reading the FB posts, he's still in hospital 6 weeks on. The gliding club apparently asked if they could use the video internally for training - it escaped from there
I've removed the link from the first post to respect the copyright of the hospitalised pilot.

I wish him a speedy recovery.

Mjb
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 12:34
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Originally Posted by mickjoebill
I've removed the link from the first post to respect the copyright of the hospitalised pilot.

I wish him a speedy recovery.

Mjb
Good call mick.

I feel sure that he will want the video used for training purposes, perhaps when he's fully recovered.
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 12:53
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Originally Posted by Chesty Morgan
In the video at about 5 seconds he moves his hand forward under the airbrake lever and you can see it gets moved upwards by a gnats. Is that enough to unlock them?
The pilot appears to be cycling the trim which in the Puchacz is just below the airbrake lever and is operated via a push-rod, for and aft. If, when doing that, the hand should foul the airbrake lever, its not enough to unlock the airbrakes which have a deliberately strong over-centre lock (because its a training glider). If the pilot is used to flying an aircraft who's airbrakes/spoilers do not have a strong over-centre lock, its just conceivable that cycling one could be confused with cycling the other.

The pilot is not early solo in gliders. He also flies power.
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 12:57
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Preflight checks - but leave the camera on the ground

Sorry, guys, I cannot agree that a solo pilot should be taking photos. Even a fixed camera turned on from the start is a distraction. Our very best air-to-air photographer is nearly always flying with a safety pilot as well.

Returning to the question, when should a tug dump the glider? Talking about my fright with experts, I had to agree I should have hung on longer; we were, after all, still climbing and every hundred feet gained would have given the glider a better chance of returning to the airfield. I was scared, my knees were shaking, I had just run completely out of courage. The last thing that a tug pilot would do at low level and low speed would be the suggested signal of waving the rudder! No way was I going to do that! I hope they have changed that stupid rule!

So still climbing, the glider more or less OK, following a very slow tug.
Hang in there. BUT....if a glider pilot ends up wildly out of position on tow, he is going to be pushing a rope. Especially if he is well above the tug.
If the glider pulls up the tail of the tug too much it can be impossible for the tug to regain flying attitude and airspeed. Before impact. When Spreckley and Rollings were practicing this maneuver they were about 6,000 feet minimum, and managed to frighten themselves badly.
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Old 11th Oct 2017, 14:07
  #38 (permalink)  
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Strange to say, my last post that was deleted on this forum was about glider airbrakes coming open.

On a thread about an airliner taking off with not enough power, I realised it might be judged off-topic, but I thought it was relevant to people having the experience or awareness to perceive something amiss and finding the solution.

Years ago, as some airbrakes opened on the ground run and two of us ran towards a car with a radio, we overheard a conversation that showed we weren't needed. Have you got both mags turned on? Try closing the airbrakes!

This video, even if it's now gone from here, was seen by some of us, and can't be forgotten.

As someone says above, it might have been interesting to see from a bit earlier. Two queries arise with me. Is the movement of the trim a deliberate part of the checks, or duplication of a previous check, or an unwittingly wrong check of what was intended to be the airbrakes? And why continue to hold the release knob until well after the danger of ground loop or inadvertent sudden initial pull-up has gone?

If I'm interrupted during checks, or there's a delay and perhaps it's so hot as to open the canopy again, I do part of the checks again, canopy and brakes again, without worrying if it looks as neurotic or manic as certain tennis players' mannerisms before every single serve.

In some places, the person hooking the rope on will observe or actually ask if the brakes are closed and locked. If they obviously aren't, and it looks like an oversight or it's someone I dont know, I'll say so; they shouldn't be offended if they have to say they like holding them open for a few seconds at the start.

It has been phased out for the pilot to ask all clear above and behind, and give the take up slack and all out commands. Nowadays it is assumed if they are hooked on they are or should be ready to go. But there isn't an excuse to be a bit more casual; it should also mean don't hook them on if they aren't ready.

So perhaps any questions about concentration or routines extend slightly further than only the pilot.
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 04:45
  #39 (permalink)  
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If I'm interrupted during checks, or there's a delay and perhaps it's so hot as to open the canopy again, I do part of the checks again,
.

Good practice.

As an aerial cameraman and former pilot I can attest that distractions leading to mission creep or outright mishandling is very common, even for 10000 hour pilots.

Whilst the effects of human factors in aviation is well known, my personal experience is that specific training in regard to distraction would be beneficial to new pilots.

So whilst eliminating a distraction such as a camera, from a student flight is one approach, another is to train and practice for distractions.

It would be quite stimulating for instructors to setup preflight and inflight distractions that could include smartphone and cameras as the protagonists.

Mjb
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Old 12th Oct 2017, 20:36
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While valid points about distraction have been made, it's just as likely the brakes could have become unlocked post checks. I've flown a few Polish gliders where brakes popped very easily on ground run or climb out. If post t/o workload is high then it can be surprisingly easy to miss the lever moving back!

I hope the pilot recovers fully. We owe him a debt of gratitude for the learning opportunity.
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