Two killed on beach when aircraft makes emergency landing.
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1. Try to turn back or land at another airport in the vicinity. This has been done to death in countless simulator sessions and would only have been possible - if at all - if everybody knew in advance what would be happening so they could react instantly. For some reason he discarded this option early in his decision making process.
2. Land between the houses. Guaranteed victims on the ground and victims on the plane as well.
3. Ditch. Possible victims in boats and possible victims on the plane.
So he had to chose between "possible victims" and "guaranteed victims".
In this accidents they had a choice between:
1. Land on the beach. Possible victims on the ground and possible victims in the plane (not every forced landing on soft ground goes without injury).
2. Ditch. Possible victims in the plane. Very remote possibility to hit a swimmer far away (> 50m) from the beach.
...That's an interesting question but easily answered. Sullenberger had three options:
1. Try to turn back or land at another airport in the vicinity. This has been done to death in countless simulator sessions and would only have been possible - if at all - if everybody knew in advance what would be happening so they could react instantly. For some reason he discarded this option early in his decision making process.....
1. Try to turn back or land at another airport in the vicinity. This has been done to death in countless simulator sessions and would only have been possible - if at all - if everybody knew in advance what would be happening so they could react instantly. For some reason he discarded this option early in his decision making process.....
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Was there talk of the plane hitting a parked car?
From the video, it looks like he put the upwind wing down indicating a pretty strong sea breeze which may have caused him to drift further away from the water.
From the video, it looks like he put the upwind wing down indicating a pretty strong sea breeze which may have caused him to drift further away from the water.
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Slightly puzzled having looked at the video; that appears to be a downwind landing. At what height did the engine failure happen ? - to my thinking unless it was at very low height, attempting a downwind landing seems odd, unless the beach is far too crowded or stops to the upwind side.
An unusually nose high attitude too, though the aircraft had not touched down by the time it went out of sight.
I was always told that if any chance & control existed we should ensure our accidents don't involve other folk; that was part of the risk we took. Sadly it looks very much from that short piece of video as if the pilot thought he saw a safe spot which in fact didn't exist. (Or possibly overshot, as someone else said. Easy to do if attempting downwind.)
It all smacks just a bit of panic, not the cool thinking we'd all like to believe in and hope we'd be capable of.
A very sad event.
An unusually nose high attitude too, though the aircraft had not touched down by the time it went out of sight.
I was always told that if any chance & control existed we should ensure our accidents don't involve other folk; that was part of the risk we took. Sadly it looks very much from that short piece of video as if the pilot thought he saw a safe spot which in fact didn't exist. (Or possibly overshot, as someone else said. Easy to do if attempting downwind.)
It all smacks just a bit of panic, not the cool thinking we'd all like to believe in and hope we'd be capable of.
A very sad event.
Looks like a bit of a stiffer breeze than from the video taken after the landing too. They had apparently only been flying for only a few mins, so the wind speed/direction would likely have been about the same as at the airfield from which they departed. I wonder if they had sufficient height to turn the airplne around for an upwind landing?
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Jay, I don't think you have got that right. Take off would have been on 35, directly into the wind. He would then have turned south and crossed the river estuary. The beach he landed on is not on the photograph, it is well to the south on the other side of the estuary.
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Judging by the distance from the airport to the beach, and where the engine failure would have happen, he would not have had much time to worry about the airframe, I think people are more worried about saving their own life, and their passengers life, this is a fairly primal instinct, so loads of todwash what you are saying here about saving the airframe.
I once many years ago had engine giving up on me during climb out, I managed to get enough altitude to make 180, and land with tail wind, probably touch down at 80 kts, while this was at an uncontrolled airstrip, with gliders operating out of the airfield during this time, I just told everybody on the radio to get out of my way, as the engine twice had died on my during the initial climb, and I was not going to waste my time to find out if it would last a whole circuit. Not one second did I have time to think about saving the airframe. I have to seriously ask the question, do any of you guys really fly?
It is around 5 Nm from the airfield to the beach, so he must have been to low to be able to return to the airstrip, and this again would have again given him very limited options. That he only hit 2 shows that the beach was almost clear, with limited time to decide he made a choice hoping to save his and his passengers life.
The result was of course tragic, and he will undoubtedly have to live with this fact for the rest of his life, but for some of you guys almost proclaiming that he should have been the hero and been a kamikaze pilot is just extremely dumb, and it's so easy to write that while you sitting in front of your PC, on the ground, not facing this issue in REAL life, when time is of the essence, and at one stage you have to be committed to your decision, and you will have to live the consequences of it, one way or the other.
As they say, it's better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.
I once many years ago had engine giving up on me during climb out, I managed to get enough altitude to make 180, and land with tail wind, probably touch down at 80 kts, while this was at an uncontrolled airstrip, with gliders operating out of the airfield during this time, I just told everybody on the radio to get out of my way, as the engine twice had died on my during the initial climb, and I was not going to waste my time to find out if it would last a whole circuit. Not one second did I have time to think about saving the airframe. I have to seriously ask the question, do any of you guys really fly?
It is around 5 Nm from the airfield to the beach, so he must have been to low to be able to return to the airstrip, and this again would have again given him very limited options. That he only hit 2 shows that the beach was almost clear, with limited time to decide he made a choice hoping to save his and his passengers life.
The result was of course tragic, and he will undoubtedly have to live with this fact for the rest of his life, but for some of you guys almost proclaiming that he should have been the hero and been a kamikaze pilot is just extremely dumb, and it's so easy to write that while you sitting in front of your PC, on the ground, not facing this issue in REAL life, when time is of the essence, and at one stage you have to be committed to your decision, and you will have to live the consequences of it, one way or the other.
As they say, it's better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6.
OK so this is another view.http://aerodromo-cascais.pt/
If I took of from the airfield below with an engine failure I would be heading for the sea or beaches ?
So where did this accident happen in relation to this picture?
If I took of from the airfield below with an engine failure I would be heading for the sea or beaches ?
So where did this accident happen in relation to this picture?
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Jay, I see you got the picture from the aerodrome website. I believe the beach he landed on is at the top of the photograph on the other side of the estuary. I believe we are looking downwind.
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Yes, Megan's map is pretty close. News reports I read said he landed on the beach at Costa da Caparica "between Bicho D'įgua, and Leblon Restaurante." Search Google Maps for the first restaurant and you'll see the situation.
Landing on the beach would be my first choice, but not if it involved mowing down people. The alternative of ditching was equally available, the sea was calm and it's warm and shallow with a sandy bottom. Plus there's a beach full of rescuers. If you have to ditch, that's ideal. According to this website, EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Ditching Myths Torpedoed! "inshore ocean ditching" like this has an 88% survival rate.
Ditching also avoids the angry mob yelling "Killer!" (which is what happened).
Landing on the beach would be my first choice, but not if it involved mowing down people. The alternative of ditching was equally available, the sea was calm and it's warm and shallow with a sandy bottom. Plus there's a beach full of rescuers. If you have to ditch, that's ideal. According to this website, EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Ditching Myths Torpedoed! "inshore ocean ditching" like this has an 88% survival rate.
Ditching also avoids the angry mob yelling "Killer!" (which is what happened).
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As has been mentioned before, the pilot intended to land on Cova do Vapor beach, which had far less people on it. Unfortunately, he overshot it by about 200 meters.
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That may be true, but it's not relevant. Once he realized he was going to overshoot that beach, he still had the option of ditching where he wouldn't hit anyone. I don't know that I'd have the presence of mind to turn into the wind or put it in a forward slip to get down to the first beach, but I would not put it down on top of people when I could just as easily ditch clear of them.
I could just as easily ditch clear of them
