Light aircraft crash reported Mull Of Kintyre
Peter............. Firstly, very sorry to hear that two of your friends died in the accident. Please accept my condolences.
I am not a pilot but maybe able help you with some answers. The accident will be fully investigated by the AAIB and a report will be published which will be in the public domain. It is difficult to give a firm time scale, to an extent it will depend on the amount of investigative work required. As a rough guide I would expect to see a report issued around a year after the accident. https://www.gov.uk/government/organi...igation-branch
As to recovery, I am sure there are other with more experience than me to answer your question. If the bodies remain with wreckage I would expect efforts would be made to effect a recovery. Even with full tanks a PA28 will hold less than 100 litres of fuel which will literally be a "drop in the ocean". The tanks may have ruptured on impact, in which case much of it will have evaporated. It is possible the tanks could still be intact. It then follows, if the wreckage is recovered, care would be taken by the recovery team. If the wreckage stays on the seabed, eventually the tanks will leak their contents. Yes, there by be some damage to the environment but it would be minimal given the dilution by the seawater present. Hope that gives you some information.
I am not a pilot but maybe able help you with some answers. The accident will be fully investigated by the AAIB and a report will be published which will be in the public domain. It is difficult to give a firm time scale, to an extent it will depend on the amount of investigative work required. As a rough guide I would expect to see a report issued around a year after the accident. https://www.gov.uk/government/organi...igation-branch
As to recovery, I am sure there are other with more experience than me to answer your question. If the bodies remain with wreckage I would expect efforts would be made to effect a recovery. Even with full tanks a PA28 will hold less than 100 litres of fuel which will literally be a "drop in the ocean". The tanks may have ruptured on impact, in which case much of it will have evaporated. It is possible the tanks could still be intact. It then follows, if the wreckage is recovered, care would be taken by the recovery team. If the wreckage stays on the seabed, eventually the tanks will leak their contents. Yes, there by be some damage to the environment but it would be minimal given the dilution by the seawater present. Hope that gives you some information.
Last edited by Planemike; 4th Jul 2017 at 12:50.
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Planemike thanks for the information and the link to their site, both bodies were recovered on the day of the accident, so I,m guessing there's no need to recover the aircraft, I didn't realise it carried so little fuel !! I know it was full because it was filled the previous day at Oban, the day the were due to fly home but the weather was too bad. The weather on Thursday 25th May was so much better and the staff at the airport advised waiting an hour for some weather to clear around Campbeltown, the guys actually waited 90 minutes before departing, so I,m guessing weather was no issue ? Thanks again for your reply.
Likewise, my condolences.
An understanding of what went wrong can be an important part of dealing with a tragedy.
The AAIB are a diligent organisation; we all await their report.
Perhaps best to bear in mind that a fundamental part of their processes is to treat the statements confidentially, utterly confidentially. That way, people feel free to speak the truth, admit mistakes and so on without fear of retribution or legal consequences.
That said, from the very little I have heard of this accident, witness statements sound unlikely.
An understanding of what went wrong can be an important part of dealing with a tragedy.
The AAIB are a diligent organisation; we all await their report.
Perhaps best to bear in mind that a fundamental part of their processes is to treat the statements confidentially, utterly confidentially. That way, people feel free to speak the truth, admit mistakes and so on without fear of retribution or legal consequences.
That said, from the very little I have heard of this accident, witness statements sound unlikely.
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Bear in mind also that unlike commercial transport planes, with light aircraft there are no cockpit voice recorders or flight data recorders which record all control movements and lots of other instrumentation and engine parameters.
In this case it appears the AAIB do not have the have the wreckage either - often in the absense of the above electronic data the wreck may provide clues. As an example the air speed at impact can often be determined by the imprint the speed indicator needle makes on the instrument case dial when the aircraft crashes.
Whether or not the AAIB decide to recover the wreckage will depend on many things. If they suspect some mechanical failure which might impact other aircraft of the same type flying and require urgent fixing on them then obviously the impetus for recovery is more than if they believe the pilot' made an error'. Sadly one factor is simply the cost of such an undertaking to recover the wreckage.
They may seek to recover just certain components - a GPS chips for instance might contain flight logs or position and altitude data which might be recoverable with expert help from the GPS manufacturer.....
So the AAIB may have far less to work with than the mega commercial plane accidents and hence it can be in some circumstances that an explanation of what happened simply cannot be determined with any certainty. In such cases the report can only suggest various possibilities.
In this case it appears the AAIB do not have the have the wreckage either - often in the absense of the above electronic data the wreck may provide clues. As an example the air speed at impact can often be determined by the imprint the speed indicator needle makes on the instrument case dial when the aircraft crashes.
Whether or not the AAIB decide to recover the wreckage will depend on many things. If they suspect some mechanical failure which might impact other aircraft of the same type flying and require urgent fixing on them then obviously the impetus for recovery is more than if they believe the pilot' made an error'. Sadly one factor is simply the cost of such an undertaking to recover the wreckage.
They may seek to recover just certain components - a GPS chips for instance might contain flight logs or position and altitude data which might be recoverable with expert help from the GPS manufacturer.....
So the AAIB may have far less to work with than the mega commercial plane accidents and hence it can be in some circumstances that an explanation of what happened simply cannot be determined with any certainty. In such cases the report can only suggest various possibilities.
My estimate of fuel quantity was rather low: I am told a PA28 holds about 189 litres with full tanks. Still a "drop in the ocean".... Thank you for the correction.
Last edited by Planemike; 4th Jul 2017 at 13:30.
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Thanks guys for all the info and replies, I hear the confidentially statement as well so maybe best I don't reveal too much more here, just 1 more thing, is there a Mayday button as such in a Piper or is it only raised by radio contact ?
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Not a 'Mayday button' at all!
Dialing up the 7700 squawk on a transponder at a time when the crew have their hands full with an emergency at what I presume was relatively low altitude is going to be very low on the list of priorities. In a critical situation with little time available probably the only viable option would be to key the mic button under the thumb and make a 'Mayday' call on whatever frequency was currently selected on the radio. But a 'Mayday' call might not have crossed their minds for even that small action would have demanded mental capacity to be diverted from the real requirement of handling the situation.
Dialing up the 7700 squawk on a transponder at a time when the crew have their hands full with an emergency at what I presume was relatively low altitude is going to be very low on the list of priorities. In a critical situation with little time available probably the only viable option would be to key the mic button under the thumb and make a 'Mayday' call on whatever frequency was currently selected on the radio. But a 'Mayday' call might not have crossed their minds for even that small action would have demanded mental capacity to be diverted from the real requirement of handling the situation.
Evening guys, I,m not a pilot and in general I,m fairly ignorant with regard to most things around PPL, however this crash involved my two friends who I'd spent 4 days with including climbing Ben Nevis. The reason for me joining your forum and posting on here is I'd like to know how long the AAIB may take to discover the cause and will they make their findings public ? Also they have located the main body of the plane around 40 metres down, will they recover it ? Bearing in mind the aircraft had only flown around 60 miles in 30 minutes it was full of fuel, would that pose a contamination risk to wildlife ?? Sorry for so many questions, all responses gratefully received thank you.
AAIB reporting times are extremely variable, because of course there are no "standard" aircraft accidents. My suspicion is that this one will take a while, from my observations of AAIB (whose work I have professional interests in).
Will they try and raise the wreckage? I don't know, but as has already been said, this will depend entirely upon whether they think that there are important answers to be found down there that they can't establish otherwise. Only the AAIB inspectors on the scene know the answer to that.
It may be helpful to understand AAIB's job. Contrary to popular opinion, it is not their job to understand the accident - although they do do that, it's as a means to an end. AAIB's job is to learn enough to make recommendations which, if followed, can prevent (or at least significantly reduce the risk of) future accidents. When they do this well, it is a very valuable service to the community - if you want to read an example of this done well download their final report on the Shoreham air crash.
What I do know of this accident suggests that pilot ability and weather will both be under scrutiny, as will some of the local services to provide pilots with information. What I don't know is whether the AAIB will consider that, when they learn about them, those will be sufficient to create as many useful recommendations as they can towards the prevention of future accidents. This is what is likely to determine whether they consider there's a need to try and raise the wreckage.
G
Hi Peter
In respect of the contamination issue and assuming the aircraft was not fitted with a diesel contamination is unlikely. Avgas is a very light fuel and would rise to the surface and evaporate. Ask anyone who runs a fuel installation about evaporation losses.
Any seabird that landed it would shift fairly quickly and again it would evaporate off.
Having being covered in it more than once in my career I can vouch for that.
In respect of the contamination issue and assuming the aircraft was not fitted with a diesel contamination is unlikely. Avgas is a very light fuel and would rise to the surface and evaporate. Ask anyone who runs a fuel installation about evaporation losses.
Any seabird that landed it would shift fairly quickly and again it would evaporate off.
Having being covered in it more than once in my career I can vouch for that.
There is a useful website that glider pilots use to see what the weather might be:
UK RASP Soaring Forecasts
UK RASP Soaring Forecasts
RASPtableGM
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The AAIB report now published on this accident. It can be found in the may monthly report.
https://assets.publishing.service.go...018_Lo_res.pdf
https://assets.publishing.service.go...018_Lo_res.pdf
