Hawker Hunter down at Shoreham
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Originally Posted by Machinbird
Now suppose that a physiological event was found to be a factor in this incident. How would you mitigate that?
Didn't the Red Arrows lose a pilot in 2011 for that very reason?
Didn't the Red Arrows lose a pilot in 2011 for that very reason?
Originally Posted by Tourist
We mitigate by taking extensive annual medicals. What would you suggest?
G induced physiological effects are part of aeromedical knowledge. Jets tend to pull g longer than their prop cousins due to their greater speed. Long ago, g-suits and g-suit controllers were invented to mitigate the effect.
In general, a g-suit will buy you an extra g, but its effect is somewhat dependent upon how rapidly you apply the g and how well your suit is fitted. Once the blood slips into your lower extremities, the g-suit is not going to put it back into your brain/eyes.
For starters, are g suits required for overhead jet maneuvers? Is that part of the display authorization? Are the g-suit control systems maintained to the same level as other flight essential equipment or are they allowed to degrade?
Yes, the Blue Angels don't use g-suits in their displays because it interferes with their close formation flying. It isn't relevant to the type of display that the Hunter was performing. The Angels do what they have to do, but they do it smoothly.
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The Blue Angels were formed in 1946. They were led by Butch Voris, a WWll ace. He selected Pacific War vets to join and train with him over the Florida Everglades. He chose this venue because, in his words:
"if anything happened, just the alligators would know".
These guys would have spent more hours hanging upside down in their cockpits, than lying horizontal in their beds.
No one can argue that an airline pilot with +15k hrs is anything less than experienced and/or is not a professional, he is paid to do the job for which he is qualified and trained for. But there are limitations to other flying work he or she may undertake, such as an annual limit, used to be 900hrs as I recal, perhaps fudges such as non P1 and few other here and there, but would not amount to anything significant. How then would one go about practising and practising more for aerobatic displays within the constraints of pilot and airframe time for old aircraft and the capricious UK weather.
I am afraid in this instance, even if the AAIB conclude it was some technical reason attributable to the aircraft, it may be difficult to escape the crocks, now at the knees, from reaching even higher.
"if anything happened, just the alligators would know".
These guys would have spent more hours hanging upside down in their cockpits, than lying horizontal in their beds.
No one can argue that an airline pilot with +15k hrs is anything less than experienced and/or is not a professional, he is paid to do the job for which he is qualified and trained for. But there are limitations to other flying work he or she may undertake, such as an annual limit, used to be 900hrs as I recal, perhaps fudges such as non P1 and few other here and there, but would not amount to anything significant. How then would one go about practising and practising more for aerobatic displays within the constraints of pilot and airframe time for old aircraft and the capricious UK weather.
I am afraid in this instance, even if the AAIB conclude it was some technical reason attributable to the aircraft, it may be difficult to escape the crocks, now at the knees, from reaching even higher.
Thanks for the recommendation
Ka-2b Pilot
I looked at a few pages online and bought it. Ripping yarns written with good humor.
The book "Flying at the Edge" by Tony Doyle has a chapter (12) on display aerobatics. It can be read online and I think has some relevance to this thread.
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[QUOTE]Indeed sky9, density altitude DOES affect all aircraft, fast jets included. Although perhaps not an issue in this accident, the fact remains that as the density altitude increases, so too does TAS relative to IAS. QUOTE]
Sure it would make a bigger circle if the TAS was greater, but as any display pilot would tell you - one never aims for a round loop if one starts from a low level. It just is not the safe way to do it in a display.
Sure it would make a bigger circle if the TAS was greater, but as any display pilot would tell you - one never aims for a round loop if one starts from a low level. It just is not the safe way to do it in a display.
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[quote=deefer dog;9113858]
Except, of course, all competition aerobatic pilots......
It's a bit silly to make generalisations, as we regularly see square loops at quite low levels in displays.
Indeed sky9, density altitude DOES affect all aircraft, fast jets included. Although perhaps not an issue in this accident, the fact remains that as the density altitude increases, so too does TAS relative to IAS. QUOTE]
Sure it would make a bigger circle if the TAS was greater, but as any display pilot would tell you - one never aims for a round loop if one starts from a low level. It just is not the safe way to do it in a display.
Sure it would make a bigger circle if the TAS was greater, but as any display pilot would tell you - one never aims for a round loop if one starts from a low level. It just is not the safe way to do it in a display.
It's a bit silly to make generalisations, as we regularly see square loops at quite low levels in displays.
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Originally Posted by Tourist
Ok, happy with adding it to everything!
It seems to me that only the gate parameters matter. Must be belt and braces.
It seems to me that only the gate parameters matter. Must be belt and braces.
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Reheat On asked .... in his post #708
Back to the whiteboard people, focus now:
Talk me through your recovery from this assumed 100kt/2600' agl/Inverted 'unusual position'.
Thus if the Hunter is slow at the top of the loop, stick pressure would be slackened to enable the Hunter to accelerate to say 200kts or more and get some ‘g’ bite on the air before starting on the downward path, with an increase in ‘g’ applied with increasing speed.
One could add ...
... flopping downwards to gain speed from an inverted 100kts will eat up an enormous amount of height before sufficient speed is gained to enable application of a meaningful and gradually increasing ‘g’ pull to avoid hitting the ground .....
... but an early exit from this dilemma is still possible: when about 150 kts is reached inverted and nose down say 20 degrees or even 45 degrees, start an unloaded roll gently to ‘upright’ and exit the manoeuvre. Your pre-planned routine is compromised, but you will have height below you and are unlikely to hit the ground. It is your choice.
Definition of manoeuvre in English: A movement or series of moves requiring skill and care.
Talk me through your recovery from this assumed 100kt/2600' agl/Inverted 'unusual position'.
Here is one suggested answer from an earlier post by sometime Hunter pilot bb, post #596
Thus if the Hunter is slow at the top of the loop, stick pressure would be slackened to enable the Hunter to accelerate to say 200kts or more and get some ‘g’ bite on the air before starting on the downward path, with an increase in ‘g’ applied with increasing speed.
One could add ...
... flopping downwards to gain speed from an inverted 100kts will eat up an enormous amount of height before sufficient speed is gained to enable application of a meaningful and gradually increasing ‘g’ pull to avoid hitting the ground .....
... but an early exit from this dilemma is still possible: when about 150 kts is reached inverted and nose down say 20 degrees or even 45 degrees, start an unloaded roll gently to ‘upright’ and exit the manoeuvre. Your pre-planned routine is compromised, but you will have height below you and are unlikely to hit the ground. It is your choice.
Definition of manoeuvre in English: A movement or series of moves requiring skill and care.
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Originally Posted by curvedsky
Back to the whiteboard people, focus now:
Talk me through your recovery from this assumed 100kt/2600' agl/Inverted 'unusual position'.
Talk me through your recovery from this assumed 100kt/2600' agl/Inverted 'unusual position'.
In this hypothetical situation with such a low speed at the apex, my actions would be to immediately apply full thrust and one notch of flap. Perhaps it is possible to roll off the top unweighted at 100kts, but I certainly wouldn't try and it is unnecessary, especially with 2600 ft to work with.
I would gently coax and allow the aircraft to follow its trajectory. Once the nose passes through the horizon inverted, the acceleration will be building quickly and, as sometimehunterpilot suggests, I would roll out at a safe speed and angle and fly away.
My instructor often surprised me with a 'knock it off' call in mid-manoeuvre, so an unambiguous and well thought through escape plan for each critical stage of the routine was essential.
Originally Posted by 118.9
Nobody seems willing to pick up this gauntlet, perhaps because it has been stated on some forums that former Hawker Hunter pilots are not really qualified to give an opinion on contemporary Hunter flying. I disagree, the machine hasn't changed and neither have the laws of physics. And this not a personal gripe; I am a current-ish Hunter pilot (I last flew one two months ago). Anyway, back to the gauntlet.
That includes people with some relevant experience saying much the same as you, accelerate a bit and then roll out.
Last edited by aox; 16th Sep 2015 at 13:52.
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Nobody seems willing to pick up this gauntlet,
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All of this assumes you perceive a problem. The problem might not have become apparent until too close to downward vertical. By then it is too late. Pilots are 'mission orientated' individuals. Complete the mission. This is the root cause of 'press-on-itis or get home-itis'. It might take a high level of currency, familiarity & relaxation thus sharp SA to 'feel' it was all a bit stodgy and not worth continuing as you neared the apex: and have an escape route planned.
I still think the A27 ground line might have been a magnet on which the manoeuvre was orientated.
I still think the A27 ground line might have been a magnet on which the manoeuvre was orientated.
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And we have nothing to indicate this pilot needed to perform such an escape.
I read what you say, but perhaps you meant something else. I'm not being facetious, but the end of the manoeuvre seemed to prove a need to perform an escape.
I read what you say, but perhaps you meant something else. I'm not being facetious, but the end of the manoeuvre seemed to prove a need to perform an escape.
There are several historical incidents where following a high energy jet accident, the pilot had no recollection of the accident and period around it. Not to say that this will have been the case here, but it's possible.
G
G
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Genghis proposes:
"There are several historical incidents where following a high energy jet accident, the pilot had no recollection of the accident and period around it. Not to say that this will have been the case here, but it's possible".
Yes, and this effect applies to many types of heavy trauma episode, train crashes, car crashes, war and so on.
I believe the Police have no business to be first in line to interview. They should defer to the AAIB who are probably better equipped to do so and have a more urgent need. [There might be an urgent need to issue a notice to all Hunter users].
"There are several historical incidents where following a high energy jet accident, the pilot had no recollection of the accident and period around it. Not to say that this will have been the case here, but it's possible".
Yes, and this effect applies to many types of heavy trauma episode, train crashes, car crashes, war and so on.
I believe the Police have no business to be first in line to interview. They should defer to the AAIB who are probably better equipped to do so and have a more urgent need. [There might be an urgent need to issue a notice to all Hunter users].