Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Accidents and Close Calls
Reload this Page >

Hawker Hunter down at Shoreham

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Hawker Hunter down at Shoreham

Old 9th Apr 2016, 16:08
  #881 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: west sussex
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Jetblu

really? Yes.

If your question is only around admissibility in criminal proceedings do you accept such video evidence could be admitted in civil proceedings?

In criminal proceedings, the test is not whether evidence shows criminal activity.
The test is more to do with relevance. And it may not be the prosecution that wants to admit the video evidence, it may be the defence.

Regarding the admissibility of evidence obtained unlawfully....there are several authorities. I suggest you go have a read.
D SQDRN 97th IOTC is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2016, 16:44
  #882 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Gone
Posts: 1,665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"If your question is only around admissibility in criminal proceedings do you accept such video evidence could be admitted in civil proceedings?"


Possibly. If the tests were met.

"In criminal proceedings, the test is not whether evidence shows criminal activity.
The test is more to do with relevance. And it may not be the prosecution that wants to admit the video evidence, it may be the defence."


Correct. Whilst I pointed out that no criminal offence ever took place on the Go Pro, I never said that was 'the test' It was an observation of relevance.

"Regarding the admissibility of evidence obtained unlawfully....there are several authorities"

Correct. And again, my submission is that no authority have gained the purported Go Pro 'evidence' lawfully.
'If' the defence should ever need to use it, that would be a matter for them of course.

I'm reading all the time. :-)


....and you still never told us how 'evidence' gained unlawfully is admissible.

Standing by.

Last edited by Jetblu; 9th Apr 2016 at 17:03.
Jetblu is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2016, 19:24
  #883 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
My impression is that since Mull of Kintyre - which was about the first time I had detailed sight of investigations into a military accident, the MoD has changed its approach massively and has become far less overtly secretive.
Apples and oranges in this case. The MOK was a Board of Enquiry and we are discussing Courts of Law (I think) which are very different things.

That said we seem to have more than enough Legal Eagles hovering around now and I ain't one (nor have I claimed to be one) so I'll get me coat.
The Old Fat One is offline  
Old 9th Apr 2016, 21:12
  #884 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Gone
Posts: 1,665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The Old Fat One

Please stay. I enjoy reading your contributions.
Jetblu is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2016, 00:49
  #885 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Genghis
As Flying Lawyer has repeatedly reminded us, I'm not a "legal eagle".
Not nearly as often as you choose to post your understanding of the law, in this and other forums.
I have mentioned it on more than one occasion because I've been concerned that readers might accept what you say but, more often than not, I've decided it's not worth bothering because you'll persist in doing so anyway.
However, I've written quite a lot of expert witness reports, submitted to both criminal and civil courts
So you keep saying, in this and other forums.
Guard against over-statement. The aviation law world is very small and I was in it for a long time. I remain in contact with former colleagues and hear about what's going on/who's doing what, including expert witnesses used. Old habits die hard.
My take on it is that virtually all evidence can potentially be submitted to a court
Your 'take on it' is wrong.
Civil cases: Broadly correct given the qualification "potentially".
Criminal cases: No. Much stricter rules apply.

D SQDRN
Problem as I see it is that a few people come up with absurd statements which have no legal grounding.
I agree entirely.
Questions (without assertions) are, of course, very different.

The Old Fat One
Unless you are a legal eagle I would stay well of such technical matters as admissibility of evidence, in this or any other case.
Wise advice.
You may have more success than I've had.
That said we seem to have more than enough Legal Eagles hovering around now
Only two now, as far as I'm aware. The third (a solicitor) stopped posting. Properly so, because his firm is involved in civil proceedings arising from this accident.

Jetblu

You have misunderstood what D Sqdrn meant by 'several authorities'. In this context, and in very brief summary, 'authorities' are previous court decisions concerning the law which must be followed in subsequent cases. (Not investigating bodies.)
You have made some good points during this thread. I suggest you let your camera and 'unlawfully obtained' arguments go. You are on the wrong track.
Flying Lawyer is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2016, 07:30
  #886 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 14,234
Received 52 Likes on 28 Posts
Criminal cases: No. Much stricter rules apply.
Interesting, and I of course accept your point.

My experience is of course all about the process of analysing events and submitting "expert " evidence, and very little about the subsequent decision making process - which people like me get minimal sight of. I have never had any evidence rejected by a court - but equally your point reminds me that most of what I've done has been civil. This makes my understanding - yes - narrow.

Point taken. I'm a flying machine "expert " who knows a bit about some aspects of legal process, and enjoys a deep technical discussion. I'm not a legal expert.

Above all else however, I like the technical discussions! In that context this thread would benefit from more "I think that you are mistaken, here's why", and less "you don't know what you are talking about ". That, like yours earlier, is also very much a general point.

G

Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 10th Apr 2016 at 07:54.
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2016, 08:25
  #887 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Gone
Posts: 1,665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Flying Lawyer

In the context in which you write, you are indeed correct, I have misunderstood D SQDRN 97th IOTC and I apologise to him for that.

That said, and within revised context, s78 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 is still very clear.

Of course, the purported Go Pro 'evidence' is minuet should any case need answering, and I shall now refrain from mentioning it further.
Jetblu is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2016, 09:30
  #888 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 14,234
Received 52 Likes on 28 Posts
Perhaps we should also remind ourselves that whilst several investigations are going on around Shoreham - and that is absolutely right and necessary, if anybody *knows* that prosecutions are going to happen, they aren't posting about that here. Nor should they. Similarly if there was such a prosecution, we also don't know (nor should anybody who knows say in public before anything is official) who would be being prosecuted.

I'm sure that as aviators we will all agree that the most important thing that comes out of all and any investigations into Shoreham will be the prevention of any repetition. There is then a very valid debate about whether that would actually be served by any kind of legal process, rather than "just" enforced learning and changes to best practices. However, that debate should perhaps not be had too publicly?

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2016, 11:09
  #889 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I like the technical discussions! In that context this thread would benefit from more "I think that you are mistaken, here's why", and less "you don't know what you are talking about ".
I'm sure that as aviators we will all agree that the most important thing that comes out of all and any investigations into Shoreham will be the prevention of any repetition. There is then a very valid debate about whether that would actually be served by any kind of legal process, rather than "just" enforced learning and changes to best practices.
Well said Genghis.

I suppose that elsewhere there are forums for legal discussion into infinite detail, where perhaps the knowledge of aviation matters is not foremost. In those forums, the legal experts could be forgiven for not perfectly articulating legal matters. If legalities are not perfectly articulated here, that's understandable, it's an aviation forum. That said, learning more is always a good thing, particularly disciplines which would normally be at the periphery of what we do....
9 lives is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2016, 11:32
  #890 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Genghis
This makes my understanding - yes - narrow.
If you are referring to your experience and understanding of both criminal and civil process, then I agree.

I'm a flying machine "expert".
That is a bold claim.
I think it is very telling that not one of the extremely knowledgeable experts with whom I worked ever made such a claim. They claimed, with justification, to have expertise in some 'flying machines', some aspects of aeronautical engineering or, where it was the case, some aspects of both.

I almost invariably decided whose expert services should be engaged. That said, the best expert with whom I ever worked had been recruited before I became involved in the case. (I was representing BA.) Thereafter, I used him whenever appropriate and possible. I wasn't in the least surprised that lawyers on the opposing side began to use him in their subsequent cases. If he had been prepared to undertake more expert work he would have been engaged much more often.
who knows a bit about some aspects of legal process
Alexander Pope's well-known comment about a little learning comes to mind.
It is still valid, 300 years later.

In that context this thread would benefit from more "I think that you are mistaken, here's why", and less "you don't know what you are talking about ".
There are times when the latter, sometimes expressed more bluntly than on others, is appropriate.
In particular, when people have refused to take more subtle hints.


I agree there is scope for a very valid debate amongst aviators about whether aviation safety is well served/improved by the criminal process. It's being going on intermittently for some years.
Understandably, opinions remain divided - primarily between those who focus on the short term and those concerned about the long term.
It would not, for the reasons you give, be appropriate to have such a debate in this thread.
Flying Lawyer is offline  
Old 10th Apr 2016, 12:43
  #891 (permalink)  
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 14,234
Received 52 Likes on 28 Posts
You did note my inverted commas around "expert" ? They were entirely deliberate, for exactly the reason you give.

G
Genghis the Engineer is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2016, 10:36
  #892 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,126
Received 10 Likes on 9 Posts
I'm not sure what causes so much angst in these threads but some might do well to read the origins of remarks/comments because that gives proper context.

I can't see anyone banging the table for a prosecution speaking for myself on the Go-Pro footage I initially asked the question if as pilots we felt such recordings were primarily the same as aviation specific FDR's, etc. Nobody has given a view on that, yet it was a question and follow up comments of how in other walks of life mobile phone footage seems freely obtained, would we want it used in aviation are all posed as questions, and still those most critical don't offer an opinion other than everyone else is an idiot and knows nothing.

The RAeS session that is suggested is a silly point was a reflection of a personal take on things. I did not feel there was this grand consensus of opinion and one might think if that view is mistaken it seems odd that this vast body of clever people don't work to change the way accident reports might be used in future?

FL it was you that introduced the Moth point and in that incident the differing emphasis of pilot and AAIB doesn't strike me as some grand obstruction to aviation safety investigation. Perhaps on another day and another set of circumstances it may prove to be, but then perhaps someone (maybe yourself?) could look at para.3 above?

However for now we have no final report and therefore no accepted rationale of its cause or even possible cause, if aviation safety is our primary concern (and very many suggest it is) then given a new season of display aviation is upon us with some regulation changes perhaps it isn't surprising some feel that is sub-optimal, especially if there is a feeling that some basic information should and could be known almost immediately or items that seem relevant had been raised in the past...

I might be miss calling things but I am not sure the processes involved (by which one means in and out of the aeroplane) in the build up to this incident will be 'best practice' for the future. The ethos of aviation possibly should avoid victims of displays, fuel management, WX decisions and so on. I don't need a lawyer or a court room to educate me in that regard.
Pittsextra is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2016, 16:18
  #893 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York City
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Phew!
The last time I struggled to read something like that it was written by Virgina Woolf in stream of consciousness style - erratic musings in long disorganized sentences reflecting a stream of random thoughts passing through a character's mind.

some might do well to read the origins of remarks/comments because that gives proper context.
Some might do well to give the origin of their remarks/comments so we can see the context, starting with you.

RAeS session?
Moth point?
I've scanned the thread but can't found either.

Can you give us the post numbers?
Bronx is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2016, 16:48
  #894 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,689
Received 341 Likes on 187 Posts
Glad it's not just me that's struggling with that post then Bronx!

It's even more complicated than you might think; to understand the context you seek, you must first be au fait with the other Hunter thread over on the mil forum... But you might remain none the wiser.
treadigraph is offline  
Old 11th Apr 2016, 18:14
  #895 (permalink)  


Sims Fly Virtually
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Used to be 3rd Sand Dune from the Left - But now I'm somewhere else somewhere else.
Posts: 704
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I initially asked the question if as pilots we felt such recordings were primarily the same as aviation specific FDR's
Seems fairly straight-forward to me ?
ExSimGuy is offline  
Old 14th Apr 2016, 13:38
  #896 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: London
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Apologies if this has been covered: Am I to understand that, although it has issued various papers, the CAA has not issued a full report on what precisely and exactly happened and why it happened?

If so, why is it appearing to be a dog in the manger and trying to spoil the experience of so many spectators when it doesn't seem to know, as yet, what came to pass?
Shoreham disaster leads to tightening of air show regulations | UK news | The Guardian

Last edited by Downwind Lander; 14th Apr 2016 at 13:53.
Downwind Lander is offline  
Old 14th Apr 2016, 14:01
  #897 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: the dark side
Posts: 1,112
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
The CAA don't report on the accident. That is the AAIB's task.

This is the final report of the air show safety reviw, there will be common themes between the two reports, and I suspect some of the new procedures from the CAA report will tie in to parts of the accident report in due course.

Edit to correct 'report' to 'review'
jumpseater is offline  
Old 14th Apr 2016, 21:49
  #898 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 68
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
We can always count on the Campaign to react 1. After an event. 2. Before they know the facts and 3. In a manner that may have no bearing on the facts. It appears (I don't have the full facts either) the Hunter stoofed due to technique, not a failing in the aircraft itself. Whilst paperwork and "quality" have their place in aviation, it is what the components did on the day that matters. Here they performed as intended; as old and knackered as they were. Therefore, in a cloud of brown smoke and PR, the CAA have fixed a problem that doesn't need fixing and failed to fix the one that does. If nothing else, the CAA are reliably unreliable.

PM
Piltdown Man is offline  
Old 15th Apr 2016, 11:14
  #899 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Piltdown Man
We can always count on the Campaign to react 1. After an event. 2. Before they know the facts and 3. In a manner that may have no bearing on the facts. It appears (I don't have the full facts either) the Hunter stoofed due to technique, not a failing in the aircraft itself. Whilst paperwork and "quality" have their place in aviation, it is what the components did on the day that matters. Here they performed as intended; as old and knackered as they were. Therefore, in a cloud of brown smoke and PR, the CAA have fixed a problem that doesn't need fixing and failed to fix the one that does. If nothing else, the CAA are reliably unreliable.

PM

Think you need to refrain from stating it was a technique not a failing in the aircraft itself. The AAIB have not published a full or even a more detailed report on the aircraft itself. They have merely highlighted some issues with the paperwork and maintenance and also the conduct and procedures of that particular airshow, that need immediate review. The actual report into the aircraft itself or the pilots planned routine has not been published.


As stated before, the aircraft should not have been issued with a PtF due to the out of date seat cartridges and possible engine MPD, regardless that these may not have contributed to the accident. If the paperwork hadn't been fudged then the aircraft wouldn't have been taking part and therefore wouldn't have crashed.


If you look at Rainbow Aviation the aircraft was for sale and clearly stated that a Major service was due Jan2012, presumably this was carried out by the previous MO (as the aircraft wasn't sold until Jul12) then the engine MPD would have expired Jan14 not Dec14 as stated. If the MPD expired Dec14 then the MPD must have been done Jan13 but it was with the new MO at this time, who were not approved to carry out the MPD. So looking at the dates its a bit odd. Same with the cartridges as these presumably were replaced in Jan11 or later (depending on manufacturing dates) as the advert for sale states expiry Jan13. Are these the only things that have been 'overlooked' too.
Hebog is offline  
Old 15th Apr 2016, 14:11
  #900 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: London
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks for helpful clarification in#883, JS and your observations in #884, PM on the CAA. Many people's summer fun will now be spoiled for nothing whatsoever. But what to do to get these hasty and ill conceived new regs altered? I might try my MP since she is new and seems keen.

(I had a couple of hours in a T7 back in the sixties. Wow. I asked the instructor for guidance on what not to do to break his aircraft. He gave me a look which showed "withering" and "amusing" in equal proportion, and said that there was nothing I could do to damage it - at least, whilst he was still there).

This accident is really sad but the possible consequences are too.

Last edited by Downwind Lander; 15th Apr 2016 at 15:33.
Downwind Lander is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.