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Hawker Hunter down at Shoreham

Accidents and Close Calls Discussion on accidents, close calls, and other unplanned aviation events, so we can learn from them, and be better pilots ourselves.

Hawker Hunter down at Shoreham

Old 6th Sep 2015, 09:18
  #501 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
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Realising exit height too low?

I don't think anyone has yet mentioned how well the pilot knew the terrain before flying it? The A27 road bridge runs across the Adur river around 70 feet above it at the point of the crash, the hills of the downs at around 280 feet are to the east and the west with the pinnacle of the Lancing College church adding to the height, 3 bridges cross the river including that of the A27. Downdrafts or curl over from the hills would need to be considered, lack of buoyancy from air at up to 29c on that day, ese breeze at about 12mph. It's a complex picture without trying to fly upside down and in the seconds he had to consider how to recover, there simply wasn't enough time having initiated the manouevre very low. He may have been at 200 feet asl, but that leaves him only around 130 feet at a guess between him and the road at the point at which he initiated the climb.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 10:06
  #502 (permalink)  
 
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Wise words from Tandemrotor that all on this forum would best consider before committing to post.

It is rather a pity that such words are not heeded by members of the press who deliberately misuse such reports to embellish their so called news story's. The misleading rubbish I have seen printed must be deeply disturbing to those closely involved resulting in much distress at a time when they least need to be burdened by such publicity.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 10:07
  #503 (permalink)  


Sims Fly Virtually
 
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Lightbulb Putting things into perspective . . . .

The news is just reporting an accident involving a car rally in Spain
A Coruna rally: Spain crash leaves six dead - BBC News

"Six people, including a pregnant woman, have been killed after a car veered off the road during a car rally in north-western Spain.Police said that 16 people had been injured, some critically, after the accident at the A Coruna car rally.
Television footage showed the car crashing off the road into spectators in a cloud of dust. Police said that the car had been going too fast."

Admittedly the victims of this event may be "not innocent by-standers, but those who voluntarily came to watch", however there would appear to be a parallel here from another type o spectator sport. It remains to be seen if laws will be changed for motor-sport events as a result - "***** happens".

(and as has been posted several times before, civil airliners have crashed into towns killing many on the ground, without calls for a ban on civil air traffic)
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 10:17
  #504 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Arfur Dent
What we need are some professional air display pilots who do nothing else but fly historic fast jets for a living. 100,000 a year and enough practice to be up to the job 100% of the time.
Dream on Dent. Who's going to pay for the historical jets, the fuel, the maintenance, the salaries for professional pilots and engineers, and ...
The net result would be that classic jets would just fade away, only to be seen in museums or at scrap merchants.
The real issues are about competency and knowing your own limits and those of your aircraft. Why shouldn't a 60 year-old take to the sky and fly a safe but less spectacular display than he did in his heyday? In any event the pilot, whoever he or she is, must satisfy the conditions of the display authorisation. No doubt the show pilots doing aerobatic manaoeuvres will have preformed their exact routine in front of the air show safety officer, before the show, to receive a sign-off (validation).
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 10:37
  #505 (permalink)  
 
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Informed risk

If one attends an event that has an eliment of risk it should be obvious enough to all that you accept these risks as part of the activity.

It is also a responsabilty of the organization of the event to minimize the risk to those attending, if you go to any Motorsport event held on closed roads ( the Isle of Man & Northern Ireland for example ) you will find some areas such as the outsides of corners are prohibited to spectators. This is a responsable way to mitigate the risks.

The air show organization in the UK is also run along these lines with strict rules about flying over and towards the spectators. Those who choose not to pay the entry fee and view the airshow from a protected area must except that they do not enjoy the same level of safety as those do.

Had there not been spectators on the road outside the airfield the casualty numbers would have been much lower and confined to those who happened to be by unfortunate chance be on the road at the time and did not deliberately choose to take the informed risk of viewing an airshow from a place with less protection.

I am sure that the review of airshow safety that will follow this event will look at risks to those outside the airfield area who have nothing to do with the event but it is difficult to protect those who choose to stand outside the protected areas but very near to the display while viewing the airshow.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 10:40
  #506 (permalink)  
 
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Nothing wrong with dreaming. Wonder why all those young current pilots practice at all. Just do a few minutes rehearsal, get an authorisation and display live to the general public with virtually no recurrent training from March to October and no flying at all in the Winter. Far too expensive to do it properly.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 11:26
  #507 (permalink)  

Do a Hover - it avoids G
 
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A and C

I could not agree more with your post 507.

Short of a Police presence nearby to enforce the no-go area (an aviation enthusiast copper with a loud hailer?) I don't know how to stop the practice of people watching from inappropriate areas outside the airfield.

JF
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 12:11
  #508 (permalink)  
 
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high density altitude - in cockpit crash video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVM3RRd1vf0


Well explained..
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 12:51
  #509 (permalink)  
 
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No-go areas!

John, are you seriously minded to think that public areas that just happen to be in the vicinity of an air display should be emptied of those who have a lawful right to be there?

And what about those members of the public who are there for any number of other reasons, perhaps a family picnic, unassociated with any air display that just may be happening in the vicinity? Should they be moved along too, or for that matter, why not close all nearby roads and empty houses, schools and hospitals? Perhaps also farmers in the vicinity should be prevented from tending their land on Airshow day?

It ain't gonna happen and as a former display pilot myself I don't think it should happen. We're not talking about the Olympics or the London marathon here, where national interests might trump the interests of a few, we're talking about a local fete in comparison.

There are better ways of mitigating here, and I am sure that the CAA will eventually tighten up some of the slack that I know, from my display days, existed in the regulation. They might also want to reconsider the relationship that exists between those charged to oversee air display flying with those who actually operate the participating aircraft. In my day there was a lot of seat trading done between overseers and operators, and a lot of blind eyes were occassioned to be turned for favours dished out.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 13:17
  #510 (permalink)  
 
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Pretty sure the Hurryups keep you off the moorland on the end of the runway at Farnborough, but that might be MOD land, not sure. Haven't got an OS map to hand to check.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 13:18
  #511 (permalink)  
 
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I am astonished about comments regarding people watching air shows from outside the field. This to a degree at least a free country and if people were not allowed to watch from public land then aircraft should not be allowed to fly over said land in their displays and that would be ridiculous.
Every Farnborough show me and hundreds of other locals watch from roundabouts and roads north of the field-we put up with the noise crowds and traffic so why should we not watch a bit of the show for nothing .

How would someone define such a rule anyway, Is it ok for me to park my car legally for ten minutes to watch on e display but not legal for a guy with deck chair , sarnies and scanner to spend 3 hours there.

This is a very sad case and sadly I think there is little bit of complacency about the rules and us being the best in the world etc . The rules protecting people at the show are excellent but I do wonder that a manouver like a loop with low pull out close to main road should not have been risk assessed more vigorously-these kind of accidents are not that rare within the small statistical crash population. Similarly at FNB displaying aircraft cannot fly over the crowd but they can and do fly over the town but in fairness most manouvering is very much done over the runway away from and at right angles to the crowd line .

I love aircraft an airshows and this was a tragedy but to 'blame' people who had just come along on a bike to lean against a fence to watch for free for half and hour for being caught up in this is too much in my view
PB
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 13:39
  #512 (permalink)  
 
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Indeed. The two chaps on a club bike ride. Or the wedding chauffeur.

There's a impression that some here are presenting a "sh1t happens" argument. I thought that aviation was proud of its ethos whereby we analyse accidents/incidents and do things to reduce the chances of repeat occurrences?

If we walk away from this accident having changed nothing then we have failed as an industry.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 13:43
  #513 (permalink)  
 
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Deefer dog

If Motorsport can enforce prohibited areas around public roads I can't see why such safety areas can't be enforced around air shows.

The right of the individual to do what they like and regulations for public safety will always clash in a free society but a reasonable balance has to be struck.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 14:08
  #514 (permalink)  
 
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Insurance and all that

Earlier in this thread, there was talk of possible hikes in insurance putting an end to future air displays.....Looks like someone from the insurance company has been reading these posts. :-(

Battle of Britain commemoration flypast over London with 20 Spitfires has been cancelled as insurance costs have soared after the Shoreham air disaster

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3224051/Battle-Britain-commemoration-flypast-London-20-Spitfires-cancelled-insurance-costs-soared-Shoreham-air-disaster.html#ixzz3ky4KA8Cw
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 15:57
  #515 (permalink)  
 
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Appertaining to the comments regarding the relationship between entry height into a loop and the top height achieved, a brief reminder of basic physics. For a given power setting, the speed and height at the top of a loop are a function of the speed and height at the entry to that loop plus the g used in the pull up. Therefore, the comments regarding a pull up from 200 ft are only considering part of the equation. Think ENERGY.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 16:49
  #516 (permalink)  
 
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I fear we may have just seen something very sad.

The end of British Airshows.....
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 16:52
  #517 (permalink)  
 
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It'll be interesting to see what happens at Farnborough, with the commercial interests.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 17:56
  #518 (permalink)  
 
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Tourist, agreed (rather sadly)
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 18:15
  #519 (permalink)  
 
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A and C, regarding your comment about motorsport events closing roads for safety and the possibility of doing the same for airshows, I would imagine that the problem would be where to draw the line. Air displays of course cover a very wide area compared to the much more limited "fallout zone" of a motorsport event. I grew up in Shoreham, and watched every airshow from the beach or more often from Mill Hill on the South Downs to the north of the airfield, a good distance from the paying spectators. I was frequently overflown (most memorably at low level by a Vulcan). I don't think it would be practical to close these outlying areas and all the transport links - in Shoreham this would include the coast road, the A27 and the railway. Possibly the harbour entrance too, depending on routings.
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Old 6th Sep 2015, 18:31
  #520 (permalink)  
 
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I gave up posting on this thread because any other opinion than it was just one of those things that happens, nobody's fault really, got taken down. It seems like a head in the sand position.
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