Light Aircraft crash at Blackbushe.
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Hawker 800
Care to quote that please?
Care to quote that please?
As I said its coming soon and any operator worth talking about is already implementing it in advance across the board for CAT or private and SP ops.
We implemented it for all ops as of June this year.
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FireFlyBob
There is a huge difference between those who have to fly and those who fly for fun.
As a Captain I cannot turn up and say to my PAX sorry guys had a tiff with the girlfriend so we are not going
you would not last 10 minutes in my organisation.
its the same with the remnants of a cold or other things where you would rather not be flying. There are pressures to fly especially if you cannot find another Captain to cover you. Many of us flying freelance having other positions which can make it hard to get cover from your regular pool
So while your student has the luxury of only choosing sunny days in more than just weather related! working pilots in small operations do not have that luxury.
As in this situation the more reason to fly two crew as FOs of different capabilities are easier to come by and it sounds like this pilot was not in the right place to be flying that day but was under pressure to do so. Single pilot was not a good call
ATC aware of this! having to register and the need for an OM but was not aware the detail of whats required on a day to day and flight basis
Pace
On the debrief I remarked that this was a good lesson for him - i.e. don't go flying if you're not in the right frame of mind - it could be fatal to do so.
As a Captain I cannot turn up and say to my PAX sorry guys had a tiff with the girlfriend so we are not going
you would not last 10 minutes in my organisation.its the same with the remnants of a cold or other things where you would rather not be flying. There are pressures to fly especially if you cannot find another Captain to cover you. Many of us flying freelance having other positions which can make it hard to get cover from your regular pool
So while your student has the luxury of only choosing sunny days in more than just weather related! working pilots in small operations do not have that luxury.
As in this situation the more reason to fly two crew as FOs of different capabilities are easier to come by and it sounds like this pilot was not in the right place to be flying that day but was under pressure to do so. Single pilot was not a good call
As I said its coming soon and any operator worth talking about is already implementing it in advance across the board for CAT or private and SP ops.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 13th Aug 2015 at 21:09.
There is a huge difference between those who have to fly and those who fly for fun.
As a Captain I cannot turn up and say to my PAX sorry guys had a tiff with the girlfriend so we are not going you would not last 10 minutes in my organisation.
its the same with the remnants of a cold or other things where you would rather not be flying. There are pressures to fly especially if you cannot find another Captain to cover you. Many of us flying freelance having other positions which can make it hard to get cover from your regular pool
So while your student has the luxury of only choosing sunny days in more than just weather related! working pilots in small operations do not have that luxury.
As in this situation the more reason to fly two crew as FOs of different capabilities are easier to come by
As a Captain I cannot turn up and say to my PAX sorry guys had a tiff with the girlfriend so we are not going you would not last 10 minutes in my organisation.
its the same with the remnants of a cold or other things where you would rather not be flying. There are pressures to fly especially if you cannot find another Captain to cover you. Many of us flying freelance having other positions which can make it hard to get cover from your regular pool
So while your student has the luxury of only choosing sunny days in more than just weather related! working pilots in small operations do not have that luxury.
As in this situation the more reason to fly two crew as FOs of different capabilities are easier to come by
So you are admitting that you fly when, under the terms of the legislation, you are not fit to do so?
As one who has flown over 40 years commercially I understand those pressures, of course.
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FireFlyBob
I am just being a realist rather than an idealist what should happen and what happens don't always match and probably was the case here another reason to always fly as a crew and not SP especially in fast Jets with pilots who have to fly rather than fly for fun
Pace
I am just being a realist rather than an idealist
what should happen and what happens don't always match and probably was the case here another reason to always fly as a crew and not SP especially in fast Jets with pilots who have to fly rather than fly for funPace
Last edited by Pace; 13th Aug 2015 at 21:40.
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calm personality that was unaffected by emotion
I´m not.
Last edited by His dudeness; 14th Aug 2015 at 08:07.
Thanks Hawker and Pitts for your responses.
That was my point really. Obviously those who bring jets into EGLK regularly have demonstrated these qualities, whilst it's the job of AAIB to understand why the pilot in this case didn't.
What a pity that in 1960 the UK Govt decided that Blackbushe wasn't going to be London's second Airport (in favour of Gatwick) and dug up a third of what is today's runway 25/07. It's actually in a much better place for an airfield than EGLF, ironically.
Again, down to airmanship and mitigation of risks
What a pity that in 1960 the UK Govt decided that Blackbushe wasn't going to be London's second Airport (in favour of Gatwick) and dug up a third of what is today's runway 25/07. It's actually in a much better place for an airfield than EGLF, ironically.
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Looks like only CAT ops to me. Nowhere in the article do I see private ops mentioned (unless i'm missing something?), i.e. each and every IOM registered aircraft (private ops only) and each and every other private registry aircraft exempt.
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=6063
From the above CAA link, it looks like it was cancelled anyway on the 9th March 2015. Clearly states CAT only.
Commission Regulation (EU) 83/2014 is applicable from 18 February 2016
As I said its coming soon and any operator worth talking about is already implementing it in advance across the board for CAT or private and SP ops.
We implemented it for all ops as of June this year.
As I said its coming soon and any operator worth talking about is already implementing it in advance across the board for CAT or private and SP ops.
We implemented it for all ops as of June this year.
From the above CAA link, it looks like it was cancelled anyway on the 9th March 2015. Clearly states CAT only.
The purpose of this Information Notice is to advise all Commercial Air Transport (CAT) Air Operator Certificate (AOC) holders engaged in two-pilot aeroplane scheduled and charter operations that the European Regulation for Flight Time Limitations (FTL) has now been published in the Official Journal of the European Union.
Last edited by Hawker 800; 14th Aug 2015 at 08:18.
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NEW EUROPEAN REGULATIONS FOR NON-COMMERCIAL (PRIVATE) OPERATORS
Non commercial operators to comply with Part NCC
Private business jet operator have now the obligation to comply with Part NCC (Non Commercial Complex). The main objective of Part-NCC is to bring non-commercial operators closer to commercial standards, requiring in particular a declaration of capability and compliance, an Operations Manual (OM) and the submission of their complex aircraft to a Continuing Airworthiness Management Organisation (CAMO).
Part NCC - To who is it applying to?
... any complex or non-complex operator
... any operator involved in non-commercial operations
... any complex motor powered aircraft
... any private operator with its principal place of business or residence in a EU member state or third Country operating in Europe (ex: Switzerland, USA, Malta, Isle of Man, ...)
Non commercial operators to comply with Part NCC
Private business jet operator have now the obligation to comply with Part NCC (Non Commercial Complex). The main objective of Part-NCC is to bring non-commercial operators closer to commercial standards, requiring in particular a declaration of capability and compliance, an Operations Manual (OM) and the submission of their complex aircraft to a Continuing Airworthiness Management Organisation (CAMO).
Part NCC - To who is it applying to?
... any complex or non-complex operator
... any operator involved in non-commercial operations
... any complex motor powered aircraft
... any private operator with its principal place of business or residence in a EU member state or third Country operating in Europe (ex: Switzerland, USA, Malta, Isle of Man, ...)
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Thanks Pace.
Like I say, I fly mostly commercial charters these days and obviously we have FTL's and a fatigue management programme, but I have a few private guys that use me for holiday cover etc that are on the IOM register and I don't believe they have any paperwork concerning FTL's.
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...0&pageid=16960
Looks like a drive to have all bizjets placed under management with all of these new regs.
http://www.applebyglobal.com/publica...an-johnson.pdf
Like I say, I fly mostly commercial charters these days and obviously we have FTL's and a fatigue management programme, but I have a few private guys that use me for holiday cover etc that are on the IOM register and I don't believe they have any paperwork concerning FTL's.
http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...0&pageid=16960
Looks like a drive to have all bizjets placed under management with all of these new regs.
http://www.applebyglobal.com/publica...an-johnson.pdf
Last edited by Hawker 800; 14th Aug 2015 at 08:57.
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Hawker 800
Looks like a drive to have all bizjets placed under management with all of these new regs.
Looks like a drive to have all bizjets placed under management with all of these new regs.
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I know of plenty private aircraft not under management. Why waste 5-6k per month having it under management when the pilots and a CAMO can do a good job?
Management companies are only in it to make money, even to the detriment of the owners. Shame, but that's how it works.
It does, however, appear to be what the authorities want.
Management companies are only in it to make money, even to the detriment of the owners. Shame, but that's how it works.
It does, however, appear to be what the authorities want.
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Why waste 5-6k per month having it under management when the pilots and a CAMO can do a good job?
Management companies are only in it to make money, even to the detriment of the owners. Shame, but that's how it works.
Management companies are only in it to make money, even to the detriment of the owners. Shame, but that's how it works.
Now there are management and management companies out there... I have been self managing and thought I did a great job until we were outsourced to a large Swiss outfit and found out that they did a better job.. At the same time there are some outfits out there that do not deserve your money...
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The fact that a multi million $ aircraft owner wants to short change the crew by not paying for training twice a year, not enough pilots, not having a proper schedule, not enough salary, no proper SMS, etc etc escapes me.....
Yes, many tight git billionaires will only have one set of crew, no leave, no proper SMS and nowhere near enough salary. What the heck is a schedule? I don't believe in all honesty ANY pilot of a private jet can truly say they have a schedule. More like a smartphone or pager on 24/7. Your day off (of which you couldn't turn the phone off) was just a day you didn't fly, or even a day when you were in the office doing paperwork... Difficult to police.
On the other hand, many manager/pilots don't want to give up their little empire to a management company for fear of losing their job.
Let's not forget that the requirement for FTLs is not the same as the incredibly complicated system the airlines are subjected to.
I could be a one page sheet saying "Max FDP is 12 hours, with 3 hours 'discretion'" and all those horrible 14 hour days are now legal again. Discretion in use daily &c &c
For the shady operators it's just more paperwork to be flogged!
I could be a one page sheet saying "Max FDP is 12 hours, with 3 hours 'discretion'" and all those horrible 14 hour days are now legal again. Discretion in use daily &c &c
For the shady operators it's just more paperwork to be flogged!
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Angry Pilots
Yes Pace, do date the angry exchange is an important revelation.
Of more significance is the pilot`s state of mind before then. Of the Staines Trident crash a witness said that Captain Key`s outburst in the crew room, prior to the flight, was the worst violent argument he had ever heard. This therefore brings into question whether his fuse was well and truly lit sometime before the flight.
In the orderly and well organised world of professional GA ops with established SOP`s and multi crew disciplines the likelihood of recurrences such as the Staines disaster is less likely. For those operating outside such strictures the likelihood of compromised safety issues must be greater.
Moreover the quality of sang froid is a must in the character of a professional pilot. Reflecting on your career can you recall any who made it any distance in the profession without sooner or later coming to some sort of grief.
I would have thought fractious and gasket blowing types are not perhaps as well suited to the task as those who can always display restraint and composure under pressure and stress. Experienced pilots know and understand this and in turn they choose their successors. Owners have deep pockets to choose their shiny biz-jets and the pretty uniforms of their crew(s), but do they have the knowledge and experience to choose who will fly them.
Of more significance is the pilot`s state of mind before then. Of the Staines Trident crash a witness said that Captain Key`s outburst in the crew room, prior to the flight, was the worst violent argument he had ever heard. This therefore brings into question whether his fuse was well and truly lit sometime before the flight.
In the orderly and well organised world of professional GA ops with established SOP`s and multi crew disciplines the likelihood of recurrences such as the Staines disaster is less likely. For those operating outside such strictures the likelihood of compromised safety issues must be greater.
Moreover the quality of sang froid is a must in the character of a professional pilot. Reflecting on your career can you recall any who made it any distance in the profession without sooner or later coming to some sort of grief.
I would have thought fractious and gasket blowing types are not perhaps as well suited to the task as those who can always display restraint and composure under pressure and stress. Experienced pilots know and understand this and in turn they choose their successors. Owners have deep pockets to choose their shiny biz-jets and the pretty uniforms of their crew(s), but do they have the knowledge and experience to choose who will fly them.
Extraordinary in the BEA Staines crash that nobody noticed 'someone' erroneously retracting the 'droops' - perhaps they were all too busy taking the piss. Expensive joke that!
Staines, however, heralded the birth of CRM and Human Factors being taken seriously. I think at that moment in time, BEA Captains actually spent layovers in a different Hotel to the rest of the crew. Brave man who questions that God-like aviator!
Back to topic - perhaps this 'accident' (is it an accident to go off the end of a runway that you just touched down way too fast on and 2/3 of the way down - more an 'inevitable result!!) will prompt regulators to insist that all jets above a certain weight have 2 pilots - they sure as hell all have 2 pilot seats.
Who hasn't been 'hot and high'? It's not a nice feeling and is now pretty much a thing of the past due to 'stabilised approach criteria'. I did a couple of 'idle thrust' landings in 747's way back when men were men and go-a rounds caused by stuffing up the descent were for wimps!!! Saw many Skippers do them before I was promoted and the thought was 'that saved lots of fuel' or some such quip.
Don't do it any more - quite rightly - and if I did, my PM would be obliged to suggest/insist on a GA.
Let's hope some good comes of this. RIP.
Staines, however, heralded the birth of CRM and Human Factors being taken seriously. I think at that moment in time, BEA Captains actually spent layovers in a different Hotel to the rest of the crew. Brave man who questions that God-like aviator!
Back to topic - perhaps this 'accident' (is it an accident to go off the end of a runway that you just touched down way too fast on and 2/3 of the way down - more an 'inevitable result!!) will prompt regulators to insist that all jets above a certain weight have 2 pilots - they sure as hell all have 2 pilot seats.
Who hasn't been 'hot and high'? It's not a nice feeling and is now pretty much a thing of the past due to 'stabilised approach criteria'. I did a couple of 'idle thrust' landings in 747's way back when men were men and go-a rounds caused by stuffing up the descent were for wimps!!! Saw many Skippers do them before I was promoted and the thought was 'that saved lots of fuel' or some such quip.
Don't do it any more - quite rightly - and if I did, my PM would be obliged to suggest/insist on a GA.
Let's hope some good comes of this. RIP.
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Arfur Dent
I agree with your comments! This was NO accident.
OK we have all got the approach wrong and ended up trying to get back to VREF and maybe made a quick mental calculation on the runway length and landing 15 KTS above VREF.
But this was a guy who came over the numbers at 150 KTS 42KTS above VREF on a short runway which he knew.
Knowing that He allowed the aircraft to continue down the runway till nearly at the other end and still at 135KTS 27KTS above VREF landed
That was not an accident that was a 100% death decision.
We are therefore looking at what causes a death decision? not an accident!
Either suicide?
Or the pilot has lost all rational thinking through extreme stress, anger or medical incapacitation and incapacitation does not mean collapsing at the controls.
Yes I also agree with you that single pilot operations will go under the spotlight!
I am not against single pilot operations in all jets.
it would be ridiculous to expect a crew in something like a Baby Eclipse which is designed for the wealthy private owner pilot and his family, but then maybe its equally ridiculous to have single crew in a high speed high level multi passenger jet which weighs 18000 IBS?
Maybe single pilot in jet aircraft of 12500 IBS or less and a maximum of 6 seats including crew should be the cutoff line? As that would keep to the spirit of single pilot.It would be hard to approve single pilot in a TBM850 and say no to an Eclipse or CJ1 just because its jet powered?
It has got to the ridiculous stage that aircraft like the Phenom 300 and CJ4 which are much heavier and faster aircraft are allowed single pilot because of the marketing wishes political wriggling and pressures of the manufacturers
Pace
I agree with your comments! This was NO accident.
OK we have all got the approach wrong and ended up trying to get back to VREF and maybe made a quick mental calculation on the runway length and landing 15 KTS above VREF.
But this was a guy who came over the numbers at 150 KTS 42KTS above VREF on a short runway which he knew.
Knowing that He allowed the aircraft to continue down the runway till nearly at the other end and still at 135KTS 27KTS above VREF landed
That was not an accident that was a 100% death decision.
We are therefore looking at what causes a death decision? not an accident!
Either suicide?
Or the pilot has lost all rational thinking through extreme stress, anger or medical incapacitation and incapacitation does not mean collapsing at the controls.
Yes I also agree with you that single pilot operations will go under the spotlight!
I am not against single pilot operations in all jets.
it would be ridiculous to expect a crew in something like a Baby Eclipse which is designed for the wealthy private owner pilot and his family, but then maybe its equally ridiculous to have single crew in a high speed high level multi passenger jet which weighs 18000 IBS?
Maybe single pilot in jet aircraft of 12500 IBS or less and a maximum of 6 seats including crew should be the cutoff line? As that would keep to the spirit of single pilot.It would be hard to approve single pilot in a TBM850 and say no to an Eclipse or CJ1 just because its jet powered?
It has got to the ridiculous stage that aircraft like the Phenom 300 and CJ4 which are much heavier and faster aircraft are allowed single pilot because of the marketing wishes political wriggling and pressures of the manufacturers
Pace