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forced landing - THE FIELD CHOSES YOU!

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forced landing - THE FIELD CHOSES YOU!

Old 31st May 2016, 06:58
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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I now teach fly constant attitude at or preferably above best glide.
Then wash off any excess speed with flap or side slip.
I explained my method to my instructor examiner and he had never seen that method before?
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Old 31st May 2016, 13:35
  #42 (permalink)  
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I explained my method to my instructor examiner and he had never seen that method before?
Yes, I too have had expressions of surprise from a couple of instructors in recent months, when I demonstrated this technique. While dining with another very well known PPRuNer last evening, we discussed exactly this point, and agreed that gliding to a forced landing is not taught well.

I also prefer this technique. I have been inspired by a passage in John Farley's book, and later discussion with him. which I understand as "choose a spot neared to you, and point the plane there, then control the speed as you near during your approach.

The notion of "best glide" is unfairly deceptive. The speed provided for "Best glide" in flight manuals is there to show compliance to the certification requirement of best distance achieved for altitude lost. This speed, however, is somewhat more slow than the optimum speed at which to enter a flare to land, particularly if you are entering the flare from a steeper than usual descent angle, and under stress.

Consider "best glide" speed compared to Vy. Vy has been established as a speed from which a suitable glide return to a landing can be safely made (another certification requirement). This is why needlessly climbing away at Vx (meaning there is no obstacle to clear) puts you at extreme risk in the case of a sudden engine failure. If your flight manual provides a speed for Vy which is faster than the "best glide" speed, you would rather glide at Vy or faster if you do not need to reach a suitable forced landing site (it's already closer to you).

It is very easy to slip off extra speed at short final (regardless of flap setting) if you're a little fast and high, it is much less safe to attempt to stretch a glide if you judged it wrong because you approached all the way down at "best glide" and judged it wrong.
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Old 3rd Jun 2016, 09:17
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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OK, I don't practice PFLs enough. I'll ask for a grilling in my biennial.

One thing I have found that surprised me when I did have a proper solo PFL session on a breezy day, how the aircraft I fly regularly feels completely different with power off. The windmilling prop certainly adds drag and the sink rates seem high. Would a dead stick with a stopped prop have less drag? A slow milling prop must be like an air brake.

None of this 500 foot go around. My preferred CFI likes to take it to 100ft at a little used and unfamiliar strip. I'd like him to take it to touch down. That was where the heart was pumping. With pre-crash checks at tree level.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 18:43
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think the field choses you, having had to do an FL after engine failure at 750ft, 60 seconds and 1.5 miles to touch down. Found a field with over shoot 100 degrees over my left shoulder did a 270 degree scan to find it otherwise it was back gardens had 5 seconds to find it. Ended up using the overshoot field going over the hedge at 5ft AGL and collecting a willow fond in the left wing breaking the landing light cover 165 meter roll out. Engine had lost all the oil as quick drain sump plug had spun out, not wire locked.
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 11:50
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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HF. I guess that was quite a learning experience! By the sound of your post your confidence has if anything been increased and you won't have been put off flying in the future.


Must have been quite an adrenaline rush.


Very well done and welcome to the club!


MB
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Old 15th Aug 2016, 00:42
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Yes Madbob I was lucky to have found a field, but all these accident reports flooded through my head. One was a report of don't fixate on one side of the plane scan all round, the other was don't stall it in on approach, hit the far hedge if you have to, it's much softer and don't stretch the glide . Did I go through all the pre crash actions no. Just concentrated on keeping up the approach speed, was at full mental load. What helped was in my training we always did PFLs to 20ft across the chosen field, stopping at 500ft does not help with confidence.

The field I went for I knew was to short but I knew I could make it, the bonus was the far hedge was low and there was another field beyond which I ended up using. The other bonus it was a high wing Cessna, a Cardinal RG with a 57mph stall speed. I think in a Piper Arrow may have been different, as the whole wing would have hit the hedge and may have cart wheeled the plane. It took the press 12 minute to arrive the police 20 and no fire or ambulance ever showed up. If I close my eyes and think about it I can still see this hedge line coming towards me at 85mph before pulling over it.

There was no time to panic just follow through your training to survive, fastest 60 seconds and shortest 1.5 miles of my life.

Last edited by horizon flyer; 31st Oct 2016 at 15:54.
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Old 26th Oct 2016, 17:12
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 300hrWannaB View Post
OK, I don't practice PFLs enough. I'll ask for a grilling in my biennial.

One thing I have found that surprised me when I did have a proper solo PFL session on a breezy day, how the aircraft I fly regularly feels completely different with power off. The windmilling prop certainly adds drag and the sink rates seem high. Would a dead stick with a stopped prop have less drag? A slow milling prop must be like an air brake.

None of this 500 foot go around. My preferred CFI likes to take it to 100ft at a little used and unfamiliar strip. I'd like him to take it to touch down. That was where the heart was pumping. With pre-crash checks at tree level.
Logically I have always thought on a VP prop to go to full course pitch not full fine as per normal and open the throttle wide open. This reduces prop drag, closest to feathered and the cylinders bounce on gas pressure, rather pulling a vacuum against the closed butterfly valve and turns with less drag. Can be proved by turning an engine over on the starter with throttle wide open, turns faster once over the first compression.
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Old 11th Dec 2016, 21:29
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
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One big difference between Glider and Powered Aircraft is the Glide Ratio.


In your Cessna you get about 12:1, maybe less (10:1 )with flaps and Slip.


But in a Glider you have the 40:1 clean option, down to 3:1 with full Air-Brakes, and if you add a side-slip, it is nearer 1:1. So you have a better choice of fields, and your landing run can be measured in feet, and not furlongs.
.
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Old 3rd Jan 2017, 23:57
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Yes scifi a Cardinal has a 12 to 1 glide when clean I had ten of flap and gear down so was about 10 to 1. Which is 7500ft from 750ft so was about how far I went. Don't want to ever have to do it again
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Old 3rd Jun 2017, 01:53
  #50 (permalink)  
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Sadly, the wrong field chose two of my friends today. We don't know why they did not either continue to fly (if they had power), or land straight ahead (where there was lots of room for a normal landing). The only facts right now is that the plan is mangled off the side of the departure end of a 6000 foot runway, with a 2000 foot over run, and two friends have died. It was trainer/trainee on a type new to the trainee. The trainer was highly experienced on type, as a spray pilot, and as a test pilot.

I hope I can learn something from this sadness one day, but for now I just know that the wrong field chose them the wrong way.
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Old 3rd Jun 2017, 12:46
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
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I have had 2 FL in my years, both quite along time ago. In the intervening years, I have been guilty of failing to keep currency on PFL. I re-addressed that at the start of 2017 ploughing in alot of time to refresh the skills and I was shocked at how rusty I'd become.

In around two thirds of the cases, I would have either overshot or undershot the field. This was pretty much all down to the judgements made around the base to final turn which I was undertaking in a conventional way. Much discussion with the CFI followed and his comment is once downwind, start a constant turn all the way round to final. Do not fly box turns. Undershooting must be avoided at all costs. Height can be lost to avoid overshooting via various methods already discussed in this thread....the most basic one demonstrated to me was push the bloody nose down hard. Don't worry about the speed build up. Getting it in is the over riding priority.

Another point worth making is fresher training. Most training involves flying to the training area, getting upto 2,500 ft plus and closing the throttle. All very dandy with plenty of time and prior knowledge of what is about to happen.

My own fresher training had the throttle being closed at a thousand feet after take-off. No prior knowledge, no warning, no HASELLs. This was not an EFATO drill. Recover, where would you go..get on with it, would you get in.....happy?... done. Back upto a thousand and climbing away. Then straight the way again, closed throttle. And so on. After the initial shock and the brain struggling to understand is this EFATO or PFL? it really helped alot in decisive decision making and more accuracy in flying it to the field. In at least one case, dive bombing style.

There is no one size fits all approach to this and you have to adapt. Judgement and skill are what it's all about. I now practice PFL every 8 to 10 weeks.

Last edited by Local Variation; 3rd Jun 2017 at 12:49. Reason: Spelling
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Old 25th Aug 2017, 12:07
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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then the instructor opens the throttle 'to avoid shock cooling the engine' thus blowing the approach right there
Find yourself another instructor. The purpose of periodically opening the throttle to high power during a protracted glide is simply to clear the spark plugs of build up in lead deposits and in doing so to ensure the engine is still delivering power when you need it. Shock cooling prevention is a myth in this case.
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Old 25th Aug 2017, 19:05
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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I thought opening the throttle was to have the exhaust hot enough to keep carb heat working, in case carb ice forms.
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Old 11th Aug 2018, 05:09
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Well, it could have been worse.... I once heard a tale from someone who drove a very long way to a remote glider retrieve, then opened up the trailer on arrival only to find a three piece suite inside.
Glider retrieves are good materiel for anecdotes. The one that springs to mind is the retrieve crew who found another glider of the same type in the trailer. Why they didn't notice the weight when they hitched it up I don't know.
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Old 28th Jan 2019, 22:10
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
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I can't see any mention in the posts of a "1,000 foot area" .... that being an aiming point for the already selected field and relative to it. I'm surprised there is no mention of it. On my GFT back in 1976 I'd taken off from runway 24 at Southend Airport and was told by the CFI examiner to climb to 2,000 feet and straight ahead. We continued to climb and at around 1800 feet he pulled the throttle and said "engine failure". I put the nose down immediately and trimmed for an 85 knot glide ... we'd been taught to fly a circuit or partial circuit for the chosen field but since there was no indication of wind direction and having stated that I would use the runway heading for the wind direction as a result I quickly realised that all of that theory for forced landings had to be abandoned. I did the normal checks .. fuel .. carb heat .. etc. and gave the mock Mayday call giving height, position and our problem.
I pointed out the field I'd chosen and then the 1000 foot area for it. I hadn't sufficient height to carry out what had been taught in the classroom ... i.e. the circuit or partial one for the field which would have involved four 90 deg turns from where I was... and what would be the point I asked myself? At the end of the day all that was required was to be over the area I'd chosen and which was relative to the field I'd also chosen, at 1000 feet. It's that simple in my opinion.
This is my major point here. Sometimes it can or could be a good thing to think outside of the box which we were once told to be in. I intended to go on to be an instructor to get the hours for a commercial licence but didn't do so .. I had a well paid freelance job working in various countries in Europe but had I done so I'd have taught student pilots that theory is often good and should be followed .. but on occasion the pilot needs to think for himself given the circumstances which exist.

All that was required from where we were was to glide a route with long and slow turns so as to be at 1000 feet at the already chosen and declared point ... from then on, and at that point, on the base leg for the field, the turn to final approach for the field at 700 feet was easily achieved. Once on the final approach to the field and two stages of flap had been selected and when the examiner had satisfied himself that we could safely land in the field, he put full power back and we climbed away, releasing the flaps in two stages. The GFT then continued ... 60 degree steep turns to the left and right etc.
The 1000 foot area 'idea' is a good one I believe as once you are there having related it to your intended field, you have cracked it. How you get to that 1000 foot area is irrelevant in my opinion. Just make sure you're there on time! ... Is it taught anymore?

Last edited by keni010; 28th Jan 2019 at 22:31.
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