forced landing - THE FIELD CHOOSES YOU!
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I explained my method to my instructor examiner and he had never seen that method before?
I also prefer this technique. I have been inspired by a passage in John Farley's book, and later discussion with him. which I understand as "choose a spot neared to you, and point the plane there, then control the speed as you near during your approach.
The notion of "best glide" is unfairly deceptive. The speed provided for "Best glide" in flight manuals is there to show compliance to the certification requirement of best distance achieved for altitude lost. This speed, however, is somewhat more slow than the optimum speed at which to enter a flare to land, particularly if you are entering the flare from a steeper than usual descent angle, and under stress.
Consider "best glide" speed compared to Vy. Vy has been established as a speed from which a suitable glide return to a landing can be safely made (another certification requirement). This is why needlessly climbing away at Vx (meaning there is no obstacle to clear) puts you at extreme risk in the case of a sudden engine failure. If your flight manual provides a speed for Vy which is faster than the "best glide" speed, you would rather glide at Vy or faster if you do not need to reach a suitable forced landing site (it's already closer to you).
It is very easy to slip off extra speed at short final (regardless of flap setting) if you're a little fast and high, it is much less safe to attempt to stretch a glide if you judged it wrong because you approached all the way down at "best glide" and judged it wrong.
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OK, I don't practice PFLs enough. I'll ask for a grilling in my biennial.
One thing I have found that surprised me when I did have a proper solo PFL session on a breezy day, how the aircraft I fly regularly feels completely different with power off. The windmilling prop certainly adds drag and the sink rates seem high. Would a dead stick with a stopped prop have less drag? A slow milling prop must be like an air brake.
None of this 500 foot go around. My preferred CFI likes to take it to 100ft at a little used and unfamiliar strip. I'd like him to take it to touch down. That was where the heart was pumping. With pre-crash checks at tree level.
One thing I have found that surprised me when I did have a proper solo PFL session on a breezy day, how the aircraft I fly regularly feels completely different with power off. The windmilling prop certainly adds drag and the sink rates seem high. Would a dead stick with a stopped prop have less drag? A slow milling prop must be like an air brake.
None of this 500 foot go around. My preferred CFI likes to take it to 100ft at a little used and unfamiliar strip. I'd like him to take it to touch down. That was where the heart was pumping. With pre-crash checks at tree level.
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I don't think the field choses you, having had to do an FL after engine failure at 750ft, 60 seconds and 1.5 miles to touch down. Found a field with over shoot 100 degrees over my left shoulder did a 270 degree scan to find it otherwise it was back gardens had 5 seconds to find it. Ended up using the overshoot field going over the hedge at 5ft AGL and collecting a willow fond in the left wing breaking the landing light cover 165 meter roll out. Engine had lost all the oil as quick drain sump plug had spun out, not wire locked.
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HF. I guess that was quite a learning experience! By the sound of your post your confidence has if anything been increased and you won't have been put off flying in the future.
Must have been quite an adrenaline rush.
Very well done and welcome to the club!
MB
Must have been quite an adrenaline rush.
Very well done and welcome to the club!
MB
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Yes Madbob I was lucky to have found a field, but all these accident reports flooded through my head. One was a report of don't fixate on one side of the plane scan all round, the other was don't stall it in on approach, hit the far hedge if you have to, it's much softer and don't stretch the glide . Did I go through all the pre crash actions no. Just concentrated on keeping up the approach speed, was at full mental load. What helped was in my training we always did PFLs to 20ft across the chosen field, stopping at 500ft does not help with confidence.
The field I went for I knew was to short but I knew I could make it, the bonus was the far hedge was low and there was another field beyond which I ended up using. The other bonus it was a high wing Cessna, a Cardinal RG with a 57mph stall speed. I think in a Piper Arrow may have been different, as the whole wing would have hit the hedge and may have cart wheeled the plane. It took the press 12 minute to arrive the police 20 and no fire or ambulance ever showed up. If I close my eyes and think about it I can still see this hedge line coming towards me at 85mph before pulling over it.
There was no time to panic just follow through your training to survive, fastest 60 seconds and shortest 1.5 miles of my life.
The field I went for I knew was to short but I knew I could make it, the bonus was the far hedge was low and there was another field beyond which I ended up using. The other bonus it was a high wing Cessna, a Cardinal RG with a 57mph stall speed. I think in a Piper Arrow may have been different, as the whole wing would have hit the hedge and may have cart wheeled the plane. It took the press 12 minute to arrive the police 20 and no fire or ambulance ever showed up. If I close my eyes and think about it I can still see this hedge line coming towards me at 85mph before pulling over it.
There was no time to panic just follow through your training to survive, fastest 60 seconds and shortest 1.5 miles of my life.
Last edited by horizon flyer; 31st Oct 2016 at 15:54.
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OK, I don't practice PFLs enough. I'll ask for a grilling in my biennial.
One thing I have found that surprised me when I did have a proper solo PFL session on a breezy day, how the aircraft I fly regularly feels completely different with power off. The windmilling prop certainly adds drag and the sink rates seem high. Would a dead stick with a stopped prop have less drag? A slow milling prop must be like an air brake.
None of this 500 foot go around. My preferred CFI likes to take it to 100ft at a little used and unfamiliar strip. I'd like him to take it to touch down. That was where the heart was pumping. With pre-crash checks at tree level.
One thing I have found that surprised me when I did have a proper solo PFL session on a breezy day, how the aircraft I fly regularly feels completely different with power off. The windmilling prop certainly adds drag and the sink rates seem high. Would a dead stick with a stopped prop have less drag? A slow milling prop must be like an air brake.
None of this 500 foot go around. My preferred CFI likes to take it to 100ft at a little used and unfamiliar strip. I'd like him to take it to touch down. That was where the heart was pumping. With pre-crash checks at tree level.
One big difference between Glider and Powered Aircraft is the Glide Ratio.
In your Cessna you get about 12:1, maybe less (10:1 )with flaps and Slip.
But in a Glider you have the 40:1 clean option, down to 3:1 with full Air-Brakes, and if you add a side-slip, it is nearer 1:1. So you have a better choice of fields, and your landing run can be measured in feet, and not furlongs.
.
In your Cessna you get about 12:1, maybe less (10:1 )with flaps and Slip.
But in a Glider you have the 40:1 clean option, down to 3:1 with full Air-Brakes, and if you add a side-slip, it is nearer 1:1. So you have a better choice of fields, and your landing run can be measured in feet, and not furlongs.
.
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Yes scifi a Cardinal has a 12 to 1 glide when clean I had ten of flap and gear down so was about 10 to 1. Which is 7500ft from 750ft so was about how far I went. Don't want to ever have to do it again
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Sadly, the wrong field chose two of my friends today. We don't know why they did not either continue to fly (if they had power), or land straight ahead (where there was lots of room for a normal landing). The only facts right now is that the plan is mangled off the side of the departure end of a 6000 foot runway, with a 2000 foot over run, and two friends have died. It was trainer/trainee on a type new to the trainee. The trainer was highly experienced on type, as a spray pilot, and as a test pilot.
I hope I can learn something from this sadness one day, but for now I just know that the wrong field chose them the wrong way.
I hope I can learn something from this sadness one day, but for now I just know that the wrong field chose them the wrong way.
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I have had 2 FL in my years, both quite along time ago. In the intervening years, I have been guilty of failing to keep currency on PFL. I re-addressed that at the start of 2017 ploughing in alot of time to refresh the skills and I was shocked at how rusty I'd become.
In around two thirds of the cases, I would have either overshot or undershot the field. This was pretty much all down to the judgements made around the base to final turn which I was undertaking in a conventional way. Much discussion with the CFI followed and his comment is once downwind, start a constant turn all the way round to final. Do not fly box turns. Undershooting must be avoided at all costs. Height can be lost to avoid overshooting via various methods already discussed in this thread....the most basic one demonstrated to me was push the bloody nose down hard. Don't worry about the speed build up. Getting it in is the over riding priority.
Another point worth making is fresher training. Most training involves flying to the training area, getting upto 2,500 ft plus and closing the throttle. All very dandy with plenty of time and prior knowledge of what is about to happen.
My own fresher training had the throttle being closed at a thousand feet after take-off. No prior knowledge, no warning, no HASELLs. This was not an EFATO drill. Recover, where would you go..get on with it, would you get in.....happy?... done. Back upto a thousand and climbing away. Then straight the way again, closed throttle. And so on. After the initial shock and the brain struggling to understand is this EFATO or PFL? it really helped alot in decisive decision making and more accuracy in flying it to the field. In at least one case, dive bombing style.
There is no one size fits all approach to this and you have to adapt. Judgement and skill are what it's all about. I now practice PFL every 8 to 10 weeks.
In around two thirds of the cases, I would have either overshot or undershot the field. This was pretty much all down to the judgements made around the base to final turn which I was undertaking in a conventional way. Much discussion with the CFI followed and his comment is once downwind, start a constant turn all the way round to final. Do not fly box turns. Undershooting must be avoided at all costs. Height can be lost to avoid overshooting via various methods already discussed in this thread....the most basic one demonstrated to me was push the bloody nose down hard. Don't worry about the speed build up. Getting it in is the over riding priority.
Another point worth making is fresher training. Most training involves flying to the training area, getting upto 2,500 ft plus and closing the throttle. All very dandy with plenty of time and prior knowledge of what is about to happen.
My own fresher training had the throttle being closed at a thousand feet after take-off. No prior knowledge, no warning, no HASELLs. This was not an EFATO drill. Recover, where would you go..get on with it, would you get in.....happy?... done. Back upto a thousand and climbing away. Then straight the way again, closed throttle. And so on. After the initial shock and the brain struggling to understand is this EFATO or PFL? it really helped alot in decisive decision making and more accuracy in flying it to the field. In at least one case, dive bombing style.
There is no one size fits all approach to this and you have to adapt. Judgement and skill are what it's all about. I now practice PFL every 8 to 10 weeks.
Last edited by Local Variation; 3rd Jun 2017 at 12:49. Reason: Spelling
then the instructor opens the throttle 'to avoid shock cooling the engine' thus blowing the approach right there
Well, it could have been worse.... I once heard a tale from someone who drove a very long way to a remote glider retrieve, then opened up the trailer on arrival only to find a three piece suite inside.
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I can't see any mention in the posts of a "1,000 foot area" .... that being an aiming point for the already selected field and relative to it. I'm surprised there is no mention of it. On my GFT back in 1976 I'd taken off from runway 24 at Southend Airport and was told by the CFI examiner to climb to 2,000 feet and straight ahead. We continued to climb and at around 1800 feet he pulled the throttle and said "engine failure". I put the nose down immediately and trimmed for an 85 knot glide ... we'd been taught to fly a circuit or partial circuit for the chosen field but since there was no indication of wind direction and having stated that I would use the runway heading for the wind direction as a result I quickly realised that all of that theory for forced landings had to be abandoned. I did the normal checks .. fuel .. carb heat .. etc. and gave the mock Mayday call giving height, position and our problem.
I pointed out the field I'd chosen and then the 1000 foot area for it. I hadn't sufficient height to carry out what had been taught in the classroom ... i.e. the circuit or partial one for the field which would have involved four 90 deg turns from where I was... and what would be the point I asked myself? At the end of the day all that was required was to be over the area I'd chosen and which was relative to the field I'd also chosen, at 1000 feet. It's that simple in my opinion.
This is my major point here. Sometimes it can or could be a good thing to think outside of the box which we were once told to be in. I intended to go on to be an instructor to get the hours for a commercial licence but didn't do so .. I had a well paid freelance job working in various countries in Europe but had I done so I'd have taught student pilots that theory is often good and should be followed .. but on occasion the pilot needs to think for himself given the circumstances which exist.
All that was required from where we were was to glide a route with long and slow turns so as to be at 1000 feet at the already chosen and declared point ... from then on, and at that point, on the base leg for the field, the turn to final approach for the field at 700 feet was easily achieved. Once on the final approach to the field and two stages of flap had been selected and when the examiner had satisfied himself that we could safely land in the field, he put full power back and we climbed away, releasing the flaps in two stages. The GFT then continued ... 60 degree steep turns to the left and right etc.
The 1000 foot area 'idea' is a good one I believe as once you are there having related it to your intended field, you have cracked it. How you get to that 1000 foot area is irrelevant in my opinion. Just make sure you're there on time! ... Is it taught anymore?
I pointed out the field I'd chosen and then the 1000 foot area for it. I hadn't sufficient height to carry out what had been taught in the classroom ... i.e. the circuit or partial one for the field which would have involved four 90 deg turns from where I was... and what would be the point I asked myself? At the end of the day all that was required was to be over the area I'd chosen and which was relative to the field I'd also chosen, at 1000 feet. It's that simple in my opinion.
This is my major point here. Sometimes it can or could be a good thing to think outside of the box which we were once told to be in. I intended to go on to be an instructor to get the hours for a commercial licence but didn't do so .. I had a well paid freelance job working in various countries in Europe but had I done so I'd have taught student pilots that theory is often good and should be followed .. but on occasion the pilot needs to think for himself given the circumstances which exist.
All that was required from where we were was to glide a route with long and slow turns so as to be at 1000 feet at the already chosen and declared point ... from then on, and at that point, on the base leg for the field, the turn to final approach for the field at 700 feet was easily achieved. Once on the final approach to the field and two stages of flap had been selected and when the examiner had satisfied himself that we could safely land in the field, he put full power back and we climbed away, releasing the flaps in two stages. The GFT then continued ... 60 degree steep turns to the left and right etc.
The 1000 foot area 'idea' is a good one I believe as once you are there having related it to your intended field, you have cracked it. How you get to that 1000 foot area is irrelevant in my opinion. Just make sure you're there on time! ... Is it taught anymore?
Last edited by keni010; 28th Jan 2019 at 22:31.
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My take on this ?
Sure the field chooses you,
It is out there as you turn downwind and try not to panic as you run the "why has it failed" flow.
What you are left with is a selection of viable options, and for this there is no set formula.
In a perfect world, you have selected a field, with escape options to your left, so if option one does not work you have the higher / lower than hoped for option.
Once it is identified, add drag, S Turn / sideslip at excessive speed, and make the target work because this not a rehearsal, but keep speed.
That you can always lose, loss of speed absolutely will kill you, always.
PA38 instructor
It is out there as you turn downwind and try not to panic as you run the "why has it failed" flow.
What you are left with is a selection of viable options, and for this there is no set formula.
In a perfect world, you have selected a field, with escape options to your left, so if option one does not work you have the higher / lower than hoped for option.
Once it is identified, add drag, S Turn / sideslip at excessive speed, and make the target work because this not a rehearsal, but keep speed.
That you can always lose, loss of speed absolutely will kill you, always.
PA38 instructor
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Trim, trim and trim
Something I have not yet seen mentioned. => => => "TRIM" the airplane for best glide speed. <= <= <= That way you don't have to worry about speed any more untill the flare.
Long time ago my instructor said. => When in trouble, if perhaps IMC, when in doubt? => Trim to best glide speed and let go of the stick/yoke.
- Play with flaps and trim and "S" turns to get the distance.
- Steer the airplane directionally with rudder only.
When in doubt/trouble/IMC or any combination of these, => trim for best glide speed , => steer with rudder, => and let go of the stick/yoke. => You will NEVER stall/Spin into mother earth.
Only go back to stick/yoke to flare.
Staying alive is trim and rudder work.
Long time ago my instructor said. => When in trouble, if perhaps IMC, when in doubt? => Trim to best glide speed and let go of the stick/yoke.
- Play with flaps and trim and "S" turns to get the distance.
- Steer the airplane directionally with rudder only.
When in doubt/trouble/IMC or any combination of these, => trim for best glide speed , => steer with rudder, => and let go of the stick/yoke. => You will NEVER stall/Spin into mother earth.
Only go back to stick/yoke to flare.
Staying alive is trim and rudder work.
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You could write a very funny book about gliding retrieves. My entries would include landing out in the next field to the club on my 'cross country landing check'. Landing in one of those little fields with low stone walls in Derbyshire which had sheep in it till I opened the brakes (in an Olympia - sounded like a Stuka) - the farmer said he was sure he had put his sheep in that field! Landing in a paddock behind a big house which happened to be owned by the MD of JCB - it was a hot day and his wife leaned over the fence and asked if I would like a cup of tea. And the time in Yorkshire when I landed in a lovely field behind a house on a road (telephone no doubt available), to be met by a party of well dressed young folk celebrating a 21st - and I was invited to the party. When my retrieve eventually arrived, they said I was clearly feeling no pain at all, and snored all the way back to the club. I had a monumental hangover.
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You could write a very funny book about gliding retrieves. My entries would include landing out in the next field to the club on my 'cross country landing check'. Landing in one of those little fields with low stone walls in Derbyshire which had sheep in it till I opened the brakes (in an Olympia - sounded like a Stuka) - the farmer said he was sure he had put his sheep in that field! Landing in a paddock behind a big house which happened to be owned by the MD of JCB - it was a hot day and his wife leaned over the fence and asked if I would like a cup of tea. And the time in Yorkshire when I landed in a lovely field behind a house on a road (telephone no doubt available), to be met by a party of well dressed young folk celebrating a 21st - and I was invited to the party. When my retrieve eventually arrived, they said I was clearly feeling no pain at all, and snored all the way back to the club. I had a monumental hangover.
And there are stories about gliders landing out at Balmoral, in the grounds.
Last edited by cats_five; 22nd Jan 2020 at 13:01.
You could write a very funny book about gliding retrieves.
The 1970's and a long distance straight line attempt from somewhere in the South (Dunstable IIRC) to as far as possible in France. Retrieve crew prepositioned at Dover ready for the landing out call. When they got it, they found the place on the map, got on the ferry and set off. Only when they were south of Paris and they phoned for a more detailed check of the location, they found they had misheard it and it transpired the pilot hadn't even crossed the channel - and in fact was in a field about 10 miles from Dover!
RAFGSA club. Corporal Pilot on a cross country lands in the grounds of a stately home and was invited to tea by the ennobled owners. He was busy tucking into the cucumber sandwiches in the drawing room when the retrieve crew arrived. The butler invited them to go to the kitchen to see if cook could rustle something up for them. One of the retrieve crew was a Gp Capt - the Station Commander! (This anecdote can be verified - I know both involved).
A land out in France. The pilot spots a Chateau with a large flat and smooth lawn and thinks "that will do". When in the flare, he passed a flower on the lawn that looked suspiciously like a water lily. It was then he realised the lawn was in fact a lake completely covered in duck weed. Splash! The glider was recovered and flying again soon after. (I know this guy too).
Another out-landing in France - in the Alps this time. Small field, farmer pleased to see the pilot as it was a designated land out spot - complete with windsock - and the farmer got paid every time a glider used it. Pilot phones the Gliding centre who say the retrieve will be on it's way very soon. Grateful farmer offers pilot a glass of wine which was eagerly accepted, followed by another Then a noise in the field prompts the pilot to look out the window where he sees the Gliding centre's one Rallye with the 260hp engine sitting in the field - it transpires they were going to tow him out when he had been expecting a land retrieve! The Cirrus is pushed to the edge of the field with it's rudder 1cm from the wall, a towrope the length of the average winch strop is attached, the farmer holds the wingtip, the pilot sobers up rapidly, the tug gets airborne at the same time as the glider, and the wall at the end of the field is cleared by about 5ft. (I know this to be absolutely true - don't ask why! In the pilot's defence, this was the early 1980s when drinking and flying was socially acceptable in France. The British pilot in question hadn't indulged in this practice - up to this point!)
Avoid imitations
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My favourite retrieve story was when a club member was asked to take a trailer many miles to pick up the aircraft. He did so. When he got to the landing site the trailer was opened up - only to find it contained a sofa and two armchairs.
