Circuit Procedures

[Pull what]

down wind One is obvious to slow up to a safe speed or add flap to reduce that speed. Watch where he turns base and delay your base turn. Widen your downwind track to extend your track distance compared to him. On final fly a curved final left and right to again extend your track distance

Slowing down downwind is seemingly an unheard of procedure for PPL's, its far to dangerous for them to fly level at approach speed downwind. Its ok between 500 feet to ground level though with idle power.

The problem with slowing down downwind is that it can obstruct the aircraft behind so its not a good procedure if you have aircraft close behind but we do teach it and expect it as an option. The best place and very obvious place to increase your circuit spacing is on the climb out path and guess what, apart from final that may well be your slowest point in the circuit and usually the only point where you are heading away from the other circuit traffic! This wont work of course you have learnt to fly by numbers because you will have to turn at 500 feet!

If however you believe in the use of good judgment and situational awareness you could extend the climb out path straight ahead to even circuit height before turning and that can increase spacing for aircraft joining cross wind or downwind or just from any other aircraft in the circuit.(its also handy for a tailwind on crosswind) Its not about pushing in, it's about letting others in too, by giving them some room!

Going around from base leg was always a military option and I belive its a useful option in a civil circuit but the military circuit and discipline is far more professional and if someone goes around from base and final at the same time it could be more interesting than I would like to think about!

You have to teach the overhead joins for the PPL because for many students that gives them the time and breathing space they need to sort out what may be a complicated six runway airfield.( 8 in the day when we used to fly to Blackpool). With the direct join you have to get it right first time on entering the ATZ, with the O/H join there is more chance of correcting mistakes early on.

I give students the option of what join they want to make and very few ever select the direct option. You have to remember that some students will have less than 10 hours P1 when making an away landing, they need the safety net of an O/H join!

Circuit collisions are caused by poor situation awareness coupled with not listening out and looking out properly. I cant think of any collisions that have happened above circuit height in an ATZ so joining o/h is just as fraught as joining direct in my opinion

[Pull what]

https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...and_G-AVBD.pdf

The above link worth a read . Every time I join OH I think of this awful accident and the only good thing about incidents like this is that we can learn from them. Not all of us do , but I certainly have .

Same airfield, history shows us we dont learn from history

https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...and_G-AXZC.pdf

[Pace]

Pull What

I understand what you are saying regarding low time students and PPLs but you do mix aircraft of differing speed and a slow 150 in front of a fast twin is a pain and usually means widening the downwind and overtaking, then extending to let him turn base before you.

You can almost guarantee the base will be too far and then the sod is all the way down final at 70 KTS.

Hence on a long final to a runway in faster machinery the thought of joint OH and making all those needless turns and speed differential decisions just to get back to where you already were makes the straight in far more appealing even though it makes for more constructive flying to not cut others up the same goes for downwind joins or even base joins from circuit height.

training aircraft can also be a pain as get 3 or 4 hammering out circuits all thinking they have right of way with instructors keeping them tight makes it impossible for others.

So please excuse pilots like me doing our own thing

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Slowing down downwind is seemingly an unheard of procedure for PPL's, its far to dangerous for them to fly level at approach speed downwind.

???

I got taught bad weather circuits (low and slow, from which I'm clever enough to work out how to do them normal height and slow). I even did some the other weekend.

[Pace]

Strange that the two most viewed threads are mid air collisions and circuit procedures which revolve around potential mid air collisions

both threads have the highest views and circuit procedures the most postings so maybe the most emotive but midair collisions which in a way includes circuit procedures must generate the highest interest?

Pace

[Pull what]

Pace i know what you mean and of course that is a problem but the guy in tbe twin probably wouldnt be in that twin if he hadnt spent some hours going around a circuit in a C152 too, we all have to live together! I prefer the military way of flying a 1500 foot circuit in aircraft faster than the training aircraft already established in the circuit.

To take up Bob's point about the deadside-I/we teach 1500 stop on dead side until sure of what is taking off or possibly going round before further descent to circuit height.

Here is another reason for the O/H join being best for the low hour pilot and I could quote many more as I am sure you all can

Cessna 172 Landing. Warton

Airfield Ground Support Unit (AGSU) was carrying out daily surface inspection during the weekend period whilst the airfield was closed. Whilst at the 25 threshold, they spotted a light aircraft approaching to land. They cleared the runway area ASAP, whereupon the aircraft landed. The RFFS were conducting a crash gate inspection at the time, advised the RFFS watch room what had happened and approached the aircraft, along with the AGSU airfield inspection team. By hand signals, the RFFS instructed the pilot to shut down. It transpired that the aircraft, flown by a student pilot, was en-route and had been cleared to land but had misidentified Warton for Blackpool. After noting details, and at his discretion, the pilot was advised to depart for his destination.

[Pull what]

I got taught bad weather circuits (low and slow, from which I'm clever enough to work out how to do them normal height and slow). I even did some the other weekend.

As an instructor I have to also consider and teach people who arnt that clever(a recent FIC candidate was aghast that I wanted him to slow to approach speed downwind to avoid extending downwind over a built up area)

Most PPL's will never need to fly a bad weather circuit but there will be many occasions in a circuit where it would be best practice to slow down.

Slow flying is part of the PPL but to take if from a box ticking exercise it has to be taught as a practical exercise and slowing down in the circuit for spacing is its greatest practical value, followed by weather and precautionary. In fact teaching spacing in the circuit is rarely done and the approach go around is usually the end result and caused by poor spacing and lack of forward planning.

The other thing that would help is if more pilots used the base leg call when appropriate. Yes I know its an on request call but if you can move away from the confinement of flying by numbers you can start to actually develop some CRM, SA and ADM skills. For instance if you are on or about to turn base and are not sure of what is ahead or out on final why not call, "base leg". Why keep a secret?

The other help is if pilots would follow the correct procedure and actually call final after making the final turn rather than delaying it because of traffic ahead or other folklore reasons.

[Pace]

Cessna 172 Landing. Warton

Airfield Ground Support Unit (AGSU) was carrying out daily surface inspection during the weekend period whilst the airfield was closed. Whilst at the 25 threshold, they spotted a light aircraft approaching to land. They cleared the runway area ASAP, whereupon the aircraft landed. The RFFS were conducting a crash gate inspection at the time, advised the RFFS watch room what had happened and approached the aircraft, along with the AGSU airfield inspection team. By hand signals, the RFFS instructed the pilot to shut down. It transpired that the aircraft, flown by a student pilot, was en-route and had been cleared to land but had misidentified Warton for Blackpool. After noting details, and at his discretion, the pilot was advised to depart for his destination.

Pull What

Landing at the wrong airfield is not only the domain of a low time student a Ryan Air 737 landed on a disused military airfield next to London Derry. I am sure that if the OH was so good it would be adopted world wide which it isn't.
It is a relic from the past and the days of non radio aircraft and minimalistic navigation aids.
Having different circuits heights for different aircraft is trying to modify the OH into something it is not. Having different OH join heights again is trying to modify to fit but both involve reduced vertical separation and hence an increase in collision risk.
i appreciate your world is teaching and the low time student and flying a circuit covers many handling and configuration changes so an excellent training procedure for novice pilots. Many instructors want to bang in as many touch and goes as possible and put 3 or 4 in the circuit and it can be hard to get in.

maybe from my perspective flying PAX firstly in light twins now jets your goal is to make the flight as smooth as possible with as few 90 degree turns as possible

i could never get my head around being setup on a long final and being to told to join overhead making up to 6 extra turns just to get almost back to where i already was. it seemed costly in extra time. an uncomfortable procedure for the PAX. We have evolved a lot since the days of non radio aircraft and nav equipment mainly due to the accuracy of GPS which can give good visual displays and even OBS magenta lines onto the active runway with accurate distances.

I see the OH as an important procedure but not the STANDARD important when conditions allow with correct cloud bases and VFR vertical separations from those clouds. Scud running in is a no no but happens all the time condoned by ATC or FIS. I have heard aircraft being told to join over head where the cloubase precluded such a procedure and feel that the procedure is abused by both pilots and ATC FIS who usually do not have accurate cloud base deterring equipment.

I also have to say I do not like modified OH joins due to airspace or other restrictions. This causes confusion from one airfield to another and confusion means one thing collision risk! OCAS 7 out of 10 midairs are in or around the airfield

Pace

[fireflybob]

Landing at the wrong airfield is not only the domain of a low time student a Ryan Air 737 landed on a disused military airfield next to London Derry.

Just for the record this flight was not operated by Ryan Air but had been subbed to eirjet.

Pace, were you always a rebel?

[Pace]

Pace, were you always a rebel?

Yes but a kind one My writing style in these forums is to challenge to encourage discussion if they come over as rebellious is that a bad thing? Maybe those views are not as rigid as they appear and my views as in the Cirrus chute pulls which started rigid can be changed too

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4857962.stm

Yes you are right ! How the Captain ever lived that one down? to start an approach maybe but to ignore visual clues getting lower to a landing is mind boggling. At some point able to go around he must have surely realised the mistake?
I have never done it but a couple of times seen another airfield and had to think twice! it is especially likely after descending through cloud for a cloud break and visual approach and a transition from flying instruments to visual! The mind plays tricks.
Especially important to not take things you see for granted but to double check everything you think you see is what you really see

Pace

[TheiC]

clues

Cues. They are cues, not clues. I hope you'll forgive me for pointing this out, but it's becoming a common error, and people dont understand what cues are, as a consequence.

[Pace]

No I am happy to be corrected
Googled Clues

>>.v. clued, clue·ing or clu·ing, clues
To give (someone) guiding information: Clue me in on what's happening around the office.<<

Is that wrong in this context ?

Pace

[flybymike]

people dont understand what cues are

Isn't it a long line of people?



Or maybe a long stick.......

[Pace]

No a long line of people is a queue ))

[TheiC]

Well, this would be as good a place as any to start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_cue

[flybymike]

No a long line of people is a queue ))

My feeble attempts at humour are invariably lost on this forum.

[Pace]

Not your humour I just cannot spill so I would nit under sting the juk any wheeze

[Pull what]

Pace, were you always a rebel?

People who think differently are the only people who can bring about change.

You know when you are too old because that is when you cannot no longer accept change.

Change leads to progress, dont knock it!

[Pull what]

You do need to separate teaching ab initio from what happens after licence issue. Teaching someone with 5 hours P1 to join O/H doesnt mean you are teaching a procedure that should be blindly followed at every opportunity.

The O/H join is a safety net for low hour cross country students. Once you are familiar and confident with airfield procedures I encourage the most expeditious arrival commensurate with experience and traffic.

Good teaching isnt about insisting that students follow what instructors feel is the best way to do something, its about teaching options and encouraging judgement. Too many instructors base their teaching on what is best or appropriate for them.

For instance I teach point and power and also elevator for airspeed but I let the student decide which method is best for them.

Same for PFL, I teach several methods but allow the student to decide which method suits them.

If your struggling with this try thinking of the student as a customer!

[fireflybob]

People who think differently are the only people who can bring about change.

People who act differently are the ones who bring about change.

You know when you are too old because that is when you cannot no longer accept change.

That's a stereotypical comment if ever I heard one. Nothing to do with "age" and more to do with mindset - most experienced instructors/pilots I know are more than open to consider alternatives.

Change leads to progress, dont knock it!

Not always - it all depends whether the ramifications of any changes are thought through beforehand.

Pace, were you always a rebel?

Pull what, my comment was made in jest - you need to lighten up a bit.