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ZSPD Cargo Plane Crash

Old 4th Dec 2009, 13:52
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Don't hold your breath Finn47

Anybody ever seen a crash report by the Chinese authorities anywhere?
If you look at the CI (Mandarin livery) crash at HK, listed here ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas MD-11 B-150 Hong Kong-Chek Lap Kok International Airport (HKG) the final report took 5 years 3 months and that accident was in Hong Kong 2 years after the handover?

Last edited by sb_sfo; 5th Dec 2009 at 05:48. Reason: get airline name right
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Old 4th Dec 2009, 14:41
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#2 Rev deploy

I have had a scenario in the sim in which the #2 reverser deployed after v1, it was mid weight, 430 or so, and the machine was very difficult to manage, as the engine was producing full thrust, but was manageable. That far along in the take-off roll, if it had been a #2 fail it would have been reasonably easy to manage.
Not saying this happened, the design of the reverser system makes it very unlikely, but the way the aircraft failed to get fully airborne, it is not impossible.
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Old 4th Dec 2009, 15:32
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Early in the MD-11 production, there was a problem with #2 reverser coming unlocked, or not locking fully after retraction after landing. It was addressed by AD, IIRC.

I'm not speculating here, just following up Wrldwide.

GB
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Old 4th Dec 2009, 17:05
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Do any of the current MD-11 pilots have any comments about SEPilots comment? I find them interesting - as they point to a few things which haven't been mentioned yet? Not that the points he raised should result in the accident in this scenario, but they are interesting points, non-the-less?

This thread has departed so far from the topic, we might as well discuss these points as well? (considering the swinging going on in the last few pages)
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Old 4th Dec 2009, 17:58
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Every speculation here starts with "I don't want to speculate".
So, here is mine - this is copy&paste of MK @Halifax.
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Old 4th Dec 2009, 18:20
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Fine Air 101 - Really?

Kingpilot,
Is there any further info on the Fine Air DC-8 accident. As far as most (me anyway!) understood, load shift was the primary cause?

Many thanks,
C o' G
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Old 4th Dec 2009, 22:20
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Cee of Gee

Read the report on the Fine Air DC8. The cause was determined to be a catalogue of loading errors by an unsupervised loading team resulting in an incorrectly loaded aircraft. The report is readily available on the internet. Then put your suggestion of a "load shift" to any experienced loadmaster and you will get a very short answer - where is the load going to shift to when the aircraft is fully loaded??!! IF load shift was a factor, the aircraft would need to be half empty to start with and everyone assumes that the cause would be the load moving aft. On the MD11, an extremely nose heavy trim would in fact have the same effect on take off as the eyewitnesses describe having on the Avient MD11. By extremely nose heavy trim, I mean outside the envelope, and before you ask, if you mix lbs and kgs and lb inches and kg inches within the same weight and balance mechanism, without understanding the consequences, this WILL happen. Raises a lot more questions now doesnt it? The MD11 is not a DC10, it can be a lot more unforgiving and needs a lot more close attention to load sequencing and supervision. Too many people think of it as just a bigger DC10 and it isnt. How many DC10 Loadmasters have I seen transfer onto the MD11 and get caught out. To illustrate this point, do a web search of aircraft sitting on their tails and see how many of them are MD11's. In Avients case they only had the type for a week so you have to ask how much experience there was within the organistion on this type, excluding the flight deck crew who were highly experienced pilots on the MD11.
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Old 5th Dec 2009, 00:30
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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SepPilot, you have posted this same diatribe on A.net quite
extensively. Give it a rest already. You have been proven many times, you are not a MD-11 pilot so stop spewing
this crap!!!
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Old 5th Dec 2009, 00:40
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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If you look at the Dragonair crash at HK, listed here ASN Aircraft accident McDonnell Douglas MD-11 B-150 Hong Kong-Chek Lap Kok International Airport (HKG) the final report took 5 years 3 months and that accident was in Hong Kong 2 years after the handover?
Dragonair? It was a China Airlines flight but in Mandarin Airlines colors.
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Old 5th Dec 2009, 02:56
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SMOC

You are correct, sir. My bad.
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Old 5th Dec 2009, 04:38
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China Airlines B 150

sb sfo.

Having acknowledged the mistake, please edit post 189 to reflect the truth.
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Old 5th Dec 2009, 07:49
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Cee og Gee Wrote:

Is there any further info on the Fine Air DC-8 accident.
Yes there is, in the shape of a final report released in 1998, the year following the accident. I think what really caused the initial speculation and its subsequent longevity is that initial inspection of the wreckage revealed a number of pallet locks that were not in place, however the investigation eventually discounted this as a cause. Follow the earlier link to ASN, they have a link to the full report, it contains some useful lessons for any pilot.

In fact I personally can't think of a jet transport accident that has been caused by loadshift? Can anyone?

CargoOne wrote:
Every speculation here starts with "I don't want to speculate".
So, here is mine - this is copy&paste of MK @Halifax.
Agreed although the actual error made would probably be different since this was an FMC equipped aircraft, the result is certainly very similar. Also very similar to the Emirates accident earlier in the year, which demonstrates another potential error, ie in entry of assumed temp.

All this talk of the MD-11s safety record really has no place here, I believe this is the first hull loss to take place in the takeoff phase, so the MDs handling characteristics and accident record in approach and landing have absolutely no relevance.
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Old 5th Dec 2009, 11:05
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Lightbulb

Kingpilot:

Ding ding ding!! You win the prize!

This incident occurred during takeoff; a hull-loss first for the MD-11, and a fundamental truth which has been overlooked by some in this otherwise erudite debate viz. the MD-11's record. And takeoff mishaps of the sort that likely sponsored this particular tragedy aren't indigenous to any specific aircraft.

Just sayin'.
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Old 5th Dec 2009, 13:51
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Kingpilot,

ASN Aircraft accident Boeing 747-249F N806FT Frankfurt International Airport (FRA)
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Old 5th Dec 2009, 14:58
  #195 (permalink)  
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Old school, new school, ne'er the twain shall meet

I put it that since pilots seem to be able to fly all other jetliners day in and day out without committing these same errors, either the MD-11 is much more difficult to fly than any other jetliner, or it attracts far more than its share of incompetent pilots. I think the former is far more likely.
Yes and no, depends on which angle you choose to view it from.

When the MD-11 was first introduced, the pilots that flew her generally came from years operating steam cockpits, DC-8, DC-10, all the earlier Boeing products, 70, 72, 73, and 74 classic, aircraft that demanded well rounded flying and handling skills. It was a given; if you had trouble flying an airplane to standard, you had no business being on the flight deck.

Enter the Airbus family of products, designed to engineer the weakest link out of the system, the pilot. The follow on products from Seattle have had pretty much the same idea in mind, lots of industry concern these last years of degrading piloting skills due over reliance on automation.

So, yes, there is an ever-growing group of pilots not competent enough to handle the MD-11, those who have cut their aviation teeth in a glass/automation environment. This is not meant as a criticism, merely a fact of life, these very same pilots are competent in the aircraft they currently fly. Not surprisingly, typing eighty words a minute is a required flying skill these days.

Where this argument is concerned, the MD-11, although a glass machine with significant computer enhancement, does not have the extensive automated flight envelope protections of the more modern airliners. In other words, she still requires the exacting handling and airmanship skills of the earlier jets.

What is surprising here, these pilots were old-school, and very experienced with the machine.
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Old 5th Dec 2009, 15:19
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I recall comments from an LTU captain some years ago in CMB, about the MD-11.
He mentioned that behind all the fancy glass displays was a multitude of electrical problems, and ....'the eleven hour flight from DUS was a veritable christmas tree of lights, red lights, yellow lights, we have them all indicating possible failures of one sort or another.'

A year later brought forth a completely different comment from the same LTU captain however, now it was...'the christmas tree of failure lights are gone, she flies like a dream, we certainly like her now, not quite as nice as the TriStar I flew before, you understand, but still very nice'
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Old 5th Dec 2009, 15:42
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bugg smasher

What is surprising here, these pilots were old-school, and very experienced with the machine
You probably didn't mean this the way it sounds.

I prefer to read it with the word "surprising" replaced by the clause "of note".

To me the skill of the pilots might relate to their knowlege and flying skills.

However if a critical factor is one that is rare enough not to be included in their training, their ability to identify, assess and correct for it may be an issue.
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Old 5th Dec 2009, 16:38
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Actualy this is the second MD-11 accident on take-off. The first was a Korean Airlines in april 1999. Cargo shifting or weight problems are all possibilities but, you can check the ZFW and CG indications on the EICAS. An other factor to dial in is, the tail tank fuel managment. Wrong fuel distribution will degrade your T/O preformance!

Last edited by MPH; 5th Dec 2009 at 18:29.
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Old 6th Dec 2009, 04:49
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Actualy this is the second MD-11 accident on take-off. The first was a Korean Airlines in april 1999
I would classify this as climb or initial climb, indeed Aviation safety network classify it as enroute.

Thanks for the info Foxhunter
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Old 6th Dec 2009, 17:03
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No doubts about the experience of the pilots. But in a cargo aircraft it is very difficult to check the work of the loadmaster and loading staff. What is the guaranty about their skill and knowledge? ( Zim registration ) Zero! A mistake in loading is so easy, most of these guys think it`s just a truck! So putting the aft cargo fwd and vice-versa is not a problem. Or just the cargo of another flight! I`ve seen it, and not only in Africa; in Europe, yes!

Maybe in this case you can just add lousy uncontrolled maintenance, unrespected duty times,
and you have an accident!

Not at all an MD-11 problem in this case.
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