MAS Oldtimers, most of us only heard of it fleetingly. In the SEP classes nowadays, there isn't much on this incident. Looks like there will be some very uncomfortable questions arising due to this thread. Like Brian, I did have some experience of the one you referred to as a kondeyless snake...he really badmouthed the cina to the melayus and vice versa. Wonder what he condemned about Geragaus! Why do you old timers still hang around such specimen?