BOAC, interestingly - well sort of - the descent/climb rate techniques you mention are not taught at Hurn, or at least they weren't on my incarnation of the course. My first experience was when I took a fam flight to EDDF during the course and our German counterparts specified rates. During live training it emerged as a viable and legitimate technique, but that's probably why it's not heard so much in the UK.
The scenario you describe on the welsh airway isn't clear enough for me to make many assumptions, other than that you are probably descending into the Manchester TMA? I certainly don't wish to insult your intelligence (7000+ posts and moderator status suggest an experienced operator!!) and you are probably aware that the 'West End' was resectorised just over a year ago. If my assumptions so far are correct, then you'll be well used to something like FL330 Exmor - Manch TMA are capped out of BCN high-level (FL335+). Unfortunately we are waiting for an acceptance from the BCN sector so that level may change dependent on other traffic. If descent is late and unreasonable I believe that it's our fault and ours to sort, without you having to get all dirty/spill the drinks!! (We are taught mental maths re: minimum descent rates if not specifying rates!!) Hopefully in your scenario the initial call was to start initial descent through east/west traffic so that the late descent doesn't arrive at exmor, the subsequent 'level by' once the next sector confirms the acceptance level.
I'm not trying to teach anyone to suck eggs, hopefully it's useful - i'm sure similar scenarios happen all over the place.
Referring to the initial point of the thread, the 'welsh' airway/BCN scenario also serves up a case study (again replicated everywhere i'm sure!) At BCN Manch TMA and EGLL (eastbound) arrivals are capped FL 330 or below, putting all a/c on similar profiles regarding standing agreements later. The wind will often dictate who gets into BCN lower (eg. strong southerly, GP below LL, etc.) If a pilot requests descent and the opportunity is there for an ATCO to facilitate that, then descent is given (hopefully!!
). Now I normally say descend NOW if i'm the instigator but I have nearly been caught out in this scenario as I decide to get the higher inbound below the other a/c (also soon to be descending). I expected the pilot to descend after requesting it, not float along until in confliction with the other a/c before commencing descent! So, personal lesson learnt there!
Clearly descent wouldn't be given if it is too late to 'swap' the relative positions at the crossing point. This is one of many potential scenarios really
Anyway, enough waffling, I understand the initial poster's frustration but I try and use common sense where bureaucracy fails! Why tempt fate? Hope the scenarios shed some light to anyone it helps as to the ATCO viewpoint.
WW
