Old 22nd May 2020, 20:36
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: NZ
Posts: 45
Arghem... advent, please read post #2! (All of the words and numbers..) Thanks 733driver.

Oggers, kind of you to say and thank you for your input, now what is your response to the later clarification by the FAA in AC 23-19A - Airframe Guide for Certification of Part 23 Airplanes p.26-27
46. Why would I want to define VC as equal to 0.9 VH? Use this definition if you are designing an airplane that is capable of a sustained speed (VC) higher than that obtained by using the wing loading (W/S) formula.
FYI per the Archer III POH Speed Power chart 5-21 Vh is 133 KTAS = 153 MPH 0.9 = 135.75 MPH so a Vno of 140 MPH CAS is conceivable if we ignore the above AC but personally I would prefer not to ignore a later clarification. Understood from Piper's perspective this is hindsight.

I am still interested in a list of any other Vno < Vcmin designs besides the later/heavier Cherokees. I am sure there will be and it will be an interesting list for sure.

With regards to the problem taking care of its self, this issue is that if an aircraft design increases its MTOW on paper and then artificially reduce their Vno as their structures are not able to comply with the gust penetration requirements this is an indication of a weaker than required air frame which becomes relevant in descent and this is where it gets more interesting.

The Archer III POH specifies a Fuel, Time, Distance to Descend chart based on an engine RPM (2500) and KIAS (122) which puts it an additional 3 knots under Vno, limiting the descent rate to only ~450fpm whilst keeping the engine warm.
This configuration is mentioned again in the Descent subsection of Normal Procedures in reference to carb ice. (The Archer III has a cooler air pick up than previous 4cyl PA-28s) so its descent profiles now start to look limited by the low Vno.
These Fuel, Time, Distance to Descend charts are published for the later Pipers (Seminole, Malibu, Warrior 161s, Archer 181s etc) and not published by the other manufactures singles mentioned above including popular IFR trainers like the DA-40 and DA-42 where these tables would be more expected.
The exception to the above is the later Mooneys. However they configure on a 750fpm descent rate rather than an airspeed likely due to their published Vno being some 20% above Vcmin.

Are there any ex Piper engineers here that might know or do we have any friendlies in their current design team?
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