Air France Low Cost Long-haul
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Air France Low Cost Long-haul
Hi all,
Am I reading this right?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ul-uni-431121/
They are setting up a low cost alternative, and pretty clearly say that they will pay pilots less and offer worse conditions. What I find concerning is that they see no problem in getting pilots to transfer from Air France.
Now this doesn't directly concern me as I'm with another company, but I find it terribly concerning that again pilot terms and conditions are being reduced.
Who are the pilots that will accept this sort of thing? Why would someone give up better terms? Why would a union even discuss this?
Wondering how long my career will last with this sort of thing happening more and more.
Cheers.
Am I reading this right?
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...ul-uni-431121/
They are setting up a low cost alternative, and pretty clearly say that they will pay pilots less and offer worse conditions. What I find concerning is that they see no problem in getting pilots to transfer from Air France.
Now this doesn't directly concern me as I'm with another company, but I find it terribly concerning that again pilot terms and conditions are being reduced.
Who are the pilots that will accept this sort of thing? Why would someone give up better terms? Why would a union even discuss this?
Wondering how long my career will last with this sort of thing happening more and more.
Cheers.
Who are the pilots that will accept this sort of thing?
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I can understand kids trying to get their first job taking lesser conditions, and I don't blame them for it when it's a choice between a job and no job. Why though do pilots happily accept the lowering of their current conditions? Are Air France pilots really going to give up their conditions for something worse?
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Hello, please bear with me, just a frequent flyer here. I'm French and not a big fan of my national company to say the least, based on all my experiences with them as a pax.
I can see this move as an attempt to save a boat that's sinking, and I get the point.
I've been told numerous times that AF pilot's terms are ridiculously more favourable than the ones people working in comparable companies are. At least the ones which aren't on the road to bankruptcy like AF seems to be. Any truth in this? I'd like to hear it from you professionals.
No one likes being offered lesser terms, I've fought against this in my own job (extra leave days removed), but I eventually had to bear with it. Isn't this a desperate move to save a company that's been held hostage by employees (not only pilots) unwilling to give up the tiniest bit of the unsustainable privileges their are enjoying?
I can see this move as an attempt to save a boat that's sinking, and I get the point.
I've been told numerous times that AF pilot's terms are ridiculously more favourable than the ones people working in comparable companies are. At least the ones which aren't on the road to bankruptcy like AF seems to be. Any truth in this? I'd like to hear it from you professionals.
No one likes being offered lesser terms, I've fought against this in my own job (extra leave days removed), but I eventually had to bear with it. Isn't this a desperate move to save a company that's been held hostage by employees (not only pilots) unwilling to give up the tiniest bit of the unsustainable privileges their are enjoying?
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Well I have found the service on AF to be quite good, I don't really understand why some feel obliged to slag off their own flag carrier, especially as in the case of AF such a treatment isn't deserved.
AF isn't on the road to bankruptcy, let's not be silly. It does need to keep up with the market and deliver more sustainable profits in the long run.
You shouldn't believe what your are told about AF pilots, as their conditions are just about average compared to other European flag carriers, and especially compared to their KLM colleagues, who are believe or nor more costly for the company.
AF personnel and pilots have made significant efforts including the loss of leave days, pay freeze, retirement age now 65 iso 60. They have have no such "unsustainable" privileges as you say.
However, AF crew will not make more efforts as long as the government doesn't create a more favorable environment for the airline, in terms of airport charges, numerous taxes etc, as they feel every effort that they make is quickly absorbed by another new tax (like the one that will pay for CDG express)
AF isn't on the road to bankruptcy, let's not be silly. It does need to keep up with the market and deliver more sustainable profits in the long run.
You shouldn't believe what your are told about AF pilots, as their conditions are just about average compared to other European flag carriers, and especially compared to their KLM colleagues, who are believe or nor more costly for the company.
AF personnel and pilots have made significant efforts including the loss of leave days, pay freeze, retirement age now 65 iso 60. They have have no such "unsustainable" privileges as you say.
However, AF crew will not make more efforts as long as the government doesn't create a more favorable environment for the airline, in terms of airport charges, numerous taxes etc, as they feel every effort that they make is quickly absorbed by another new tax (like the one that will pay for CDG express)
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@Zbman: thanks for your reply. I'm 100% entitled to express my opinion on AF's service compared to other companies I'm flying with and this has nothing to do with feeling like I'm obligated to do so. And it does not compare favourably in my experience. I could say the same from other flagship carriers too, with which I've flown on my usual routes but that's not my point.
I get your point regarding AF's air crews terms and conditions. It would have been nice to make it clear whether you are or not among them.
As for AF being in danger, well, numerous sources qualify the recently announced steps as "an effort to save the company" so the situation must be serious indeed, even if my saying "on the brink of bankruptcy" might have been pushing it too far.
I get your point regarding AF's air crews terms and conditions. It would have been nice to make it clear whether you are or not among them.
As for AF being in danger, well, numerous sources qualify the recently announced steps as "an effort to save the company" so the situation must be serious indeed, even if my saying "on the brink of bankruptcy" might have been pushing it too far.
I am one of those "grossly overpaid" KLM pilots. The reason why we cost so much has two reasons:
1. We pay 52% income tax
2. All dutch citizens enjoy the most robust pension system in the world. Danish And Dutch Pensions Top Mercer Index - International Adviser
When driving through the Netherlands, you don't see any shiny buildings or other elaborate richness. It is all sitting in the bank.
The Pilots Pension Fund has an invested capital of €8+ billion. There are about 4000 people (2800 pilots and 1200 retired persons) who are financially connected to the fund. That is a GUARANTEED average amount of € 2 million per person.
The pension fund is comfortably capable of sustaining its obligations until eternity. It can pay 115% of its perpetual obligations. See: https://www.klmvliegendfonds.nl/nieu...september-2016
However, that is not enough. It is supposed to keep a 122% margin by law. The margin has been decimated from 122 to 115 percent because of the low interest rates lately.
To repair this, normally €600 million should be paid by KLM. A court order has prevented this from happening. This is the dilemma. Not a single KLM pilot wants KLM to pay €600 million. Neither does KLM. This is the cost of real pension sustainability.
To be continued.
1. We pay 52% income tax
2. All dutch citizens enjoy the most robust pension system in the world. Danish And Dutch Pensions Top Mercer Index - International Adviser
When driving through the Netherlands, you don't see any shiny buildings or other elaborate richness. It is all sitting in the bank.
The Pilots Pension Fund has an invested capital of €8+ billion. There are about 4000 people (2800 pilots and 1200 retired persons) who are financially connected to the fund. That is a GUARANTEED average amount of € 2 million per person.
The pension fund is comfortably capable of sustaining its obligations until eternity. It can pay 115% of its perpetual obligations. See: https://www.klmvliegendfonds.nl/nieu...september-2016
However, that is not enough. It is supposed to keep a 122% margin by law. The margin has been decimated from 122 to 115 percent because of the low interest rates lately.
To repair this, normally €600 million should be paid by KLM. A court order has prevented this from happening. This is the dilemma. Not a single KLM pilot wants KLM to pay €600 million. Neither does KLM. This is the cost of real pension sustainability.
To be continued.
And so many people in UK think that we are always right about everything-I wish our pensions were so well run, although i take your point that there is no point in forcing KLM to pay more when the fund is so strong.
Why is it acceptable for people in some jobs to be told they are grossly overpaid, at the end of the day and airline pilot has a highly responsible and often quite difficult job, no one ever hears of accountants being too expensive , lawyers yes but nothing actually happens about it
Why is it acceptable for people in some jobs to be told they are grossly overpaid, at the end of the day and airline pilot has a highly responsible and often quite difficult job, no one ever hears of accountants being too expensive , lawyers yes but nothing actually happens about it
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alainthailande, I am not AF crew, but for various reasons I am quite au fait of their terms and conditions.
I would take the news headlines about AF being on the brink of disaster with a large pinch of salt, and rather than mainstream press, have a look at the articles from La Tribune or Les Échos. Far more balanced and informative.
AF's problem is that the state thinks it is a cow that can be milked endlessly. If you compare airport charges between it's two main hubs you' ll quickly realise what's wrong. And it' s nothing to do with perceived "privileges". This is a fairy tale to divert attention from the real issues.
I would take the news headlines about AF being on the brink of disaster with a large pinch of salt, and rather than mainstream press, have a look at the articles from La Tribune or Les Échos. Far more balanced and informative.
AF's problem is that the state thinks it is a cow that can be milked endlessly. If you compare airport charges between it's two main hubs you' ll quickly realise what's wrong. And it' s nothing to do with perceived "privileges". This is a fairy tale to divert attention from the real issues.
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No AF employee has yet agreed to any change in their terms and conditions due to the proposed new long-haul airline, code named "Boost'" because there hasn't yet been anything concrete proposed. But why managment thinks that the pilots would agree to fly the same routes (70% of the routes would be existing city pairs) for less money is beyond me. I, for one, am sick and tired of managers constantly creating new projects purely in order to justify their own existence.
How about fixing the airline you already have, before creating a new one that'll be broken, too?
How about fixing the airline you already have, before creating a new one that'll be broken, too?
Fox Niner it is indeed good news that your pension fund appears to be in such good shape. But the reality is that at current rates of return (interest rates is only one measure) KLM has a completely different challenge in funding your and future employees retirement. There is a cynical point of view that the pension promises made in the past were never really properly understood. As a member myself of an extremely good final salary scheme, I have always had a degree of doubt about how it will work out long term not least due to the more than ambivalent attitude of government towards direct and indirect taxation.
