Ryanair to recruit 1000 Pilots
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Ignoring the race to bottom in T's & C's, one thing has been over looked. And that, very simply, is Ryanair's training and operating methods. They turn out good if not excellent pilots. But their lack of loyalty to their staff means their experienced ones will leave as soon as they are unhappy with their lot. Their loyalty to RYR is at the same level as their customers - little more than one flight. That has to be an expensive way of doing business.
Last edited by Piltdown Man; 25th Feb 2017 at 07:39. Reason: Wretched autocorrect!
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As long as they're left to pushing buttons in the right sequence.
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I am one of them. But it wasn't thanks to their rigid SOPs and scare mongering over FD-off approaches that got my hand-eye coordination back from instructing days.
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I am one of them. But it wasn't thanks to their rigid SOPs and scare mongering over FD-off approaches that got my hand-eye coordination back from instructing days.
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Piltdown Man & Raven 1.
"Good if not excellent pilots"
Genuine questions
1. What is an excellent pilot? What sets him/he apart from their peers?
2.What is unique about FR training that they turn out so many of these excellent pilots ?
3.which airlines are not turning out excellent pilots ?
4.do you both work for FR and what other major airlines have you worked for that would give you the experience base to make the above statement ?
"Good if not excellent pilots"
Genuine questions
1. What is an excellent pilot? What sets him/he apart from their peers?
2.What is unique about FR training that they turn out so many of these excellent pilots ?
3.which airlines are not turning out excellent pilots ?
4.do you both work for FR and what other major airlines have you worked for that would give you the experience base to make the above statement ?
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The excellent TREs are a key part of that. And in my book, a propensity to hand fly to 20000 feet, or pester to fly raw data does not impress me much. Done at an inappropriate time, it frankly does the opposite. However it is a pity that proper 'Mk1 eyeball' circuits are verboten, as that really does show up a good pair of hands, and saves fuel. (And a bad pair of hands, so I guess that's why)
The visual requires finesse, but the raw data requires more mental capacity as you are bouncing around, in and out of clouds, configuring, slowing, changing winds. And regular practice is required to hone those skills. Unfortunately we really only have one chance during line flying, as any company likely takes a dim view at unnecessary go-arounds. At least we could be honest about it and say "we're only as good as the automatics".
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Well, I have worked at several different airlines in 25 years or so, so I think that would give me the experience base to confirm that Ryanair copilots, and presumably Captains are very good indeed; certainly well above the average in Europe. Good handling, good SOP adherence, and not least, good airmanship.
I agree, FR pilots might be excellent at operating the systems, with one of the most comprehensive SOPs in Europe. Everything is controlled to the tiniest detail. And with good reason, as they employ hundreds of low-time people with 200hrs. When they finish their simulator licence (MPL), they know how to push the buttons and what speed/config to have at the different phases of flight.
However I have talked to several ex-FR Captains and DY-instructors (DY has hired quite a few FR F/Os the last few years) and they tell a different story. Ask a FR F/O to do a visual approach and see what happens...
Of course this doesn't apply to every FR pilot, but many did not know how to fly a visual, even with autopilot basic modes. And flying manually was almost regarded as something "dangerous" and not to be done unless they really had to.
What kind of "pilots" is that?! Excellent system operators? Pherhaps... Excellent pilots? I beg to differ...
I'm not blaming the pilots themselves, because anyone can do anything with training. This is a management issue, and as a result of hiring pilots with no flying experience.
And in my book, a propensity to hand fly to 20000 feet, or pester to fly raw data does not impress me much. Done at an inappropriate time, it frankly does the opposite.
I am not an apologist for Ryanair. But there are definitely worse contracts around. You get to fly newish airplanes with what most consider good training and sops. If you pass muster you are be pretty much guaranteed an upgrade and can move on to the sandpit/China or your national carrier in due course. I do accept that forty years of this is probably not sustainable. But 100k plus after three plus years is hardly exploitation.
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And Blue06, do these guys move right to left with the same level of manual flying skills ?
To unnecessarily increase workload and risk of error, both for PF and PM, is quite simply poor airmanship, on a revenue flight full of passengers who have paid to have the flight operated in the safest possible manner
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Oh dear, the "hand flying is unsafe / puts a massive strain on the Pilot monitoring" brigade is back. Ask the passengers of the Air france A330 or the Air Asia A320 or the FlyDubai 737 (to mention but three recent examples) what they think of their pilots manual handling skills. As with any skill, use it or loose it. Loosing it is not very wise if you fly aircraft for a living. As far as practicing in the sim we all know that 15 minutes once every 6 months (if that) is simply nowhere near enough to maintain the required level of proficiency.
All pilots MUST be able to hand fly their aircraft without any noticeable reduction in safety or an unacceptable increase in workload, with regular practice it really is not that hard. If they cannot the solution is certainly not to stick the autopilot on and hope their skill shortage is never needed. Does that mean doing raw data holds at Heathrow? certainly not but it does mean manual flying should be encouraged when appropriate.
All pilots MUST be able to hand fly their aircraft without any noticeable reduction in safety or an unacceptable increase in workload, with regular practice it really is not that hard. If they cannot the solution is certainly not to stick the autopilot on and hope their skill shortage is never needed. Does that mean doing raw data holds at Heathrow? certainly not but it does mean manual flying should be encouraged when appropriate.
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When they finish their simulator licence (MPL)
An MPL is not a simulator license. Further to that, Ryanair do not run an MPL scheme, none of their pilots would have an MPL, it isn't recognised in the Ryanair OM A.
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To unnecessarily increase workload and risk of error, both for PF and PM, is quite simply poor airmanship, on a revenue flight full of passengers who have paid to have the flight operated in the safest possible manner.
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Go practice raw data, crosswinds, OEI, etc in the excellent FB SIM facility
How on earth can you practice/improve/maintain handling skills to cope with challenging manoeuvres in a Fixed Base sim?
How on earth can you practice/improve/maintain handling skills to cope with challenging manoeuvres in a Fixed Base sim?
Last edited by RAT 5; 27th Feb 2017 at 20:55.
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Please remind us how many simulator hours and how many real flying hours are there, in an MPL training ?
A modular fATPL will give you a minimum of 200 hours of real flight and a maximum of 50 hours of simulator.
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The reason becouse there is so many SOP's in the company is to protect against the low experience pilots or cadets mistakes. No more no less.
There is no better pilots in Ryanair than in my previous company. I would love to fly a "real" visual circuit in this company or a "raw data" app but I have to accept the rules of the company. It is not a company for "play with the aircraft" for me is my job and I just follow procedures. They pay me and tell me how they want to do things and I just follow their SOPs.
But I have to say that some pilots here think they are at the top and never have flown in other company, continent or airlines...
There is no better pilots in Ryanair than in my previous company. I would love to fly a "real" visual circuit in this company or a "raw data" app but I have to accept the rules of the company. It is not a company for "play with the aircraft" for me is my job and I just follow procedures. They pay me and tell me how they want to do things and I just follow their SOPs.
But I have to say that some pilots here think they are at the top and never have flown in other company, continent or airlines...
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The ex-RYR pilots I have worked with have shown a clear understanding of what is required of them as pilots and consistently deliver the goods without hassle. They also appear to be able to do pretty reasonable visual approaches, with or without FD. Their knowledge has been excellent and are a pleasure to work with. And no, I have never ever set foot on a RYR aircraft, nor do I ever intend to do so.
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Hi Guys,
Can anyone tell me why, if RYR is so short of guys, they won't consider NTR F/Os? I have applied with 7000 jet time, coming from long haul but wanting to go back to Europe, and they are not looking for guys with my profile at the moment, which is very surprising! They then don't want experienced guys? I have twice more hours than many captains at RYR, and 4000 of them are on the short haul in Europe.
Any idea?
Can anyone tell me why, if RYR is so short of guys, they won't consider NTR F/Os? I have applied with 7000 jet time, coming from long haul but wanting to go back to Europe, and they are not looking for guys with my profile at the moment, which is very surprising! They then don't want experienced guys? I have twice more hours than many captains at RYR, and 4000 of them are on the short haul in Europe.
Any idea?
