Norwegian B787 - FLL based
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Bonds
Norwegian’s FLL based pilots who will commute cannot participate in any US airline jumpseat program. Approvals require the employer to be an airline, not a third-party agency such as Orient Ship Management. Ongoing incompetence in managing crew resources may preclude the purchase of FLL commuting tickets on anything other than very short notice with associated high cost. Additionally, European pilot unions have not yet considered their response to the proposal allowing FAA licensed pilots to operate European registered and regulated aircraft for the stated period.
Eventually, the situation may improve. By recruiting US based pilots Kjos has invited a very large elephant into the room in the form of the 1926 Railway Labor Act, RLA. The invitation is surprising given the recent victory by US based NAI flight attendants in obtaining union recognition, representation and collective agreement rights directly with their “real employer”, Norwegian:
http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...NMB-No.-35.pdf
http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...ss-Release.pdf
During the Norwegian Cabin Crew Association application to the National Mediation Board for union recognition, Norwegian and their collaborator in employment circumvention fought tooth and nail against the reality that Norwegian acts as the real employer:
“Norwegian contends that OSM is the sole employer of the cabin crew and that neither NAR nor NAS exercises control over OSM. In addition, Norwegian contends that they lack the continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner in which the Cabin Crew members render their services”.
However, the Agreement for Provision of Services of Aircraft Crew between OSM and Norwegian states:
“OSM, in exchange for compensation, provides employees to perform work as part of the customers business under the customers control and management”
The Railway Labor Act states:
“The jurisdiction of the RLA extends to every common carrier by air engaged in interstate or foreign commerce and, every air pilot or other person who performs any work as an employee or subordinate official of such carrier or carriers, subject to its or their continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner of rendition of his services”
Consequently, both Norwegian and OSM failed, abysmally, in their attempt to obstruct cabin crew being allowed to ballot for union representation as “employees” of Norwegian. The full report may be read at link:
https://storage.googleapis.com/dakot...NMB-No.-21.pdf
So, if you live in the FLL area and are prepared to forego labor rights and labor principles with your “real employer” and pay 30K for the privilege, until such time as your group follows the lead of the US based cabin crew to organize union representation, the smiling rock ape regime may be for you.
Eventually, the situation may improve. By recruiting US based pilots Kjos has invited a very large elephant into the room in the form of the 1926 Railway Labor Act, RLA. The invitation is surprising given the recent victory by US based NAI flight attendants in obtaining union recognition, representation and collective agreement rights directly with their “real employer”, Norwegian:
http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...NMB-No.-35.pdf
http://cabinassociation.org/wp-conte...ss-Release.pdf
During the Norwegian Cabin Crew Association application to the National Mediation Board for union recognition, Norwegian and their collaborator in employment circumvention fought tooth and nail against the reality that Norwegian acts as the real employer:
“Norwegian contends that OSM is the sole employer of the cabin crew and that neither NAR nor NAS exercises control over OSM. In addition, Norwegian contends that they lack the continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner in which the Cabin Crew members render their services”.
However, the Agreement for Provision of Services of Aircraft Crew between OSM and Norwegian states:
“OSM, in exchange for compensation, provides employees to perform work as part of the customers business under the customers control and management”
The Railway Labor Act states:
“The jurisdiction of the RLA extends to every common carrier by air engaged in interstate or foreign commerce and, every air pilot or other person who performs any work as an employee or subordinate official of such carrier or carriers, subject to its or their continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner of rendition of his services”
Consequently, both Norwegian and OSM failed, abysmally, in their attempt to obstruct cabin crew being allowed to ballot for union representation as “employees” of Norwegian. The full report may be read at link:
https://storage.googleapis.com/dakot...NMB-No.-21.pdf
So, if you live in the FLL area and are prepared to forego labor rights and labor principles with your “real employer” and pay 30K for the privilege, until such time as your group follows the lead of the US based cabin crew to organize union representation, the smiling rock ape regime may be for you.
Join Date: Jul 2015
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Defending
Thanks for your input - not defending , just giving fact about how things work in Europe and Far East . A guy with 250 hours can start at a carrier in the U.K. On a 737 at 70 000 sterling - 35 days off immediately and have a bond . That bond is not paid unless you leave within 3 years . Now how much does American pay first year for a new hire ? It's all relative both with good points and bad points . Personally I like the US model much better than the European . Over there you can have second officers , first officers , senior first officers . You are incorrect though , many airlines in the Far East use recruiting agencies alone .
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Joking
Joking ? No when I was first employed by a certain carrier there in 2004 it's what I started at including salary flight pay pension brought it up over that amount.
I have a company contacting me currently starting salary is 69.8
I have a company contacting me currently starting salary is 69.8
Last edited by iaveight; 14th Mar 2017 at 18:12.
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As I said I have a current contract sitting in my hands from an agency for a 737 job . I am assuming it's Royal Mail and it's starting at just over 70 k . So I have to disagree.
Sigma aviation 70k to start southern U.K. Base !
Sigma aviation 70k to start southern U.K. Base !
that such salaries are available to low hours pilots in the UK or Europe.
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It's funny how people always talk about this and that airline dragging down the standards. It's the people who accept those jobs that are dragging down the standards. These companies would not fly very much if people would refuse to take those jobs.
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iaveight and Direct Bondi are correct in their analysis of the AFA/CWA drive to gain recognition of the NMB, National Mediation Board. The Board's finding that the contracting company was sufficiently close and exercised sufficient control over employee's so as to be indistinguishable from the carrier itself. NMB recognition triggers:
45 U.S. Code § 152 - General duties
First. Duty of carriers and employees to settle disputes
It shall be the duty of all carriers, their officers, agents, and employees to exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, rules, and working conditions, and to settle all disputes, whether arising out of the application of such agreements or otherwise, in order to avoid any interruption to commerce or to the operation of any carrier growing out of any dispute between the carrier and the employees thereof.
This is a huge win for AFA. While it does not guarantee a contract it places Norwegian under the RLA, which at least makes them play by some rules.
45 U.S. Code § 152 - General duties
First. Duty of carriers and employees to settle disputes
It shall be the duty of all carriers, their officers, agents, and employees to exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, rules, and working conditions, and to settle all disputes, whether arising out of the application of such agreements or otherwise, in order to avoid any interruption to commerce or to the operation of any carrier growing out of any dispute between the carrier and the employees thereof.
This is a huge win for AFA. While it does not guarantee a contract it places Norwegian under the RLA, which at least makes them play by some rules.
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Despite great expectations, no 787's are based in FLL. Could it be because the airline is overstretched?
“On 8 December the Financial Times reported investor concerns over profitability and debt at Norwegian Air Shuttle” – Link:
https://www.aviationanalytics.com/20...overstretched/
I’m no financial wizard and I don’t have a Spanish ATPL, but all those red and negative numbers are not good (Kool-Aid is no substitute for reality).
“On 8 December the Financial Times reported investor concerns over profitability and debt at Norwegian Air Shuttle” – Link:
https://www.aviationanalytics.com/20...overstretched/
I’m no financial wizard and I don’t have a Spanish ATPL, but all those red and negative numbers are not good (Kool-Aid is no substitute for reality).
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Despite great expectations, no 787's are based in FLL. Could it be because the airline is overstretched?
“On 8 December the Financial Times reported investor concerns over profitability and debt at Norwegian Air Shuttle” – Link:
https://www.aviationanalytics.com/20...overstretched/
I’m no financial wizard and I don’t have a Spanish ATPL, but all those red and negative numbers are not good (Kool-Aid is no substitute for reality).
“On 8 December the Financial Times reported investor concerns over profitability and debt at Norwegian Air Shuttle” – Link:
https://www.aviationanalytics.com/20...overstretched/
I’m no financial wizard and I don’t have a Spanish ATPL, but all those red and negative numbers are not good (Kool-Aid is no substitute for reality).
Something does not seem right here. Pilots are training to be based there but this certainly has the feeling of a position with not a lot of security for FLL based pilots.
I could be wrong and have misread the situation but it does not give me that warm fuzzy feeling one should get with a position like this.
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Most people don't make job decisions based on assumptions, and I don't see any source that there was ever meant to be an aircraft based in FLL, maybe someone can prove me wrong?
Again I ask WHY an aircraft base would increase or decrease job security for those crew based there?
Again I ask WHY an aircraft base would increase or decrease job security for those crew based there?
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You will not be branded a "scab" in the U.S. The term "scab" in the States applies to to workers who cross union picket lines to work jobs that a union is striking against. It does not apply to people who are working for companies that are not experiencing union action (unless the company is providing workers to cover for another company's struck work such as when FalconAir was brought in to provide lift for Spirit when the Spirit pilots were on strike). It also does not apply to pilots who are working for less money that their counterparts. If the term "scab" applied to pilots who worked for less money and benefits than their counterparts, then ALPA and APA are guilty of creating "scabs" when they agreed to the B-scale wages of the 1980s. If someone refers to Norwegian pilots as "scabs" in the U.S. they are ignorant fools and not worth the time to worry about. Besides, beyond denying use of the jumpseat, which Norwegian pilots would not have access to, there is nothing an ALPA, APA, SWAPA or Teamsters pilot could do, so why would you care if one of them called you a "scab" out of ignorance?
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This was brought up in another forum -
Norwegian could be looking in to syphoning pilots from the many Miami area secondary cargo airlines such as Centurion, Amerijet, SkyLease, or Florida West. These airlines pay less than Norwegian for wide body cargo flying. The chance to do some "more prestigious" flying on brand new 787s for a bit more pay could be very tempting to those guys, especially if they already live in south Florida.
Norwegian could be looking in to syphoning pilots from the many Miami area secondary cargo airlines such as Centurion, Amerijet, SkyLease, or Florida West. These airlines pay less than Norwegian for wide body cargo flying. The chance to do some "more prestigious" flying on brand new 787s for a bit more pay could be very tempting to those guys, especially if they already live in south Florida.
Training cost bond
For pilots not current on B737 it will be a Non-Compete clause in the contract for the first three years. If you hold an FAA flight crew license, Norwegian will support conversion training to obtain an EASA license during a time of up to 2 years. During this period, you will operate under a waiver on European registered Aircraft.
https://osmaviation.com/job/contract...s-b787-us-fll/
This from another job post:
"If you hold an FAA flight crew license, Norwegian will support conversion training to obtain an EASA license during a time of up to 2 years. During this period, you will operate under a waiver on European registered aircraft."
"For pilots not current on B787 or B777 there will be a training cost bond, being paid back or decreasing by 1/3 each year over three years..."
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You will not be branded a scab. You’ll be the next lowest and people, including hiring boards will look at you like you’re scum of the earth. You’ll also be blacklisted, blocked on the radio and shunned by your fellow aviators for flying for a union, and contract busting operator. You’ll also have the honor of flying a Boeing for less than a CRJ pilot.
What a load of twaddle. “ blocked on the radio “. Are you a professional pilot or a school yard bully ?
And , regional pilots get paid less in the US than a supermarket trolley collector here in the UK, so please explain who pays these massive CRJ salaries.
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I speak the truth and I don’t care what a non-US pilot think. Look up the number of ads for crj pilots and the bonuses. Also, crj captain pay is ok these days. I’m right and you don’t know of what you speak of.