Ryanair Vs BA Part 2
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Ryanair Vs BA Part 2
Since Pprune deleted the last thread I thought I would start it again to see if our good friend "Normal Pilot" (possibly mangament posing as a pilot) had made a decision about staying in FR or going to BA?
Sadly it seems like a case of dirty tricks to me.
Sadly it seems like a case of dirty tricks to me.
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I imagine that it was a management type (on 19k a year, encouraged by a Z level on 80k a year, probably on the promise of a 'promotion' to do ten times the workload for 24k a year, 'when the time comes' ie never, or 12 times the workload for 23k a year or 3k less than the last person doing the same job) that started the thread and didn't like a few home truths. I base this on the forum starter's previous posts which included an almost identical thread re Norwegian v Ryanair and also a very thinly veiled attack on pilots in general in a thread about atpl exams and checks, whilst claiming to be a pilot.
Or even more scary, this could really be an fr pilot who hopefully has now gone off to have a think about what is going on around him or her and will realise that no matter how good he or she has it, just remember. You're next.
Or even more scary, this could really be an fr pilot who hopefully has now gone off to have a think about what is going on around him or her and will realise that no matter how good he or she has it, just remember. You're next.
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Is it really that hard to believe that BA isn't for everyone?
I will say straight away that I have never flown for Ryanair. However I do fly for another loco and have gone round the mental loop of "BA or not". I applied, I got asked for interview, I thought about it, I thought about it some more.....and some more, and I withdrew my application.
As a career, looking solely and completely at the job and company alone, BA beats most if not all others. However, once you get to the kind of hours that they are asking for at the moment many of us have a much more complicated life than they did at 21 and it might just not fit. I certainly fit into that bracket and as much as BA fits my boyhood dream which will probably never go away completely, I'd rather see more of my young family and not commute to and from London. I'd rather have my higher captains salary now so my life is easier when my kids are young than have an even higher BA captains salary when my hair is white and my yacht needs a new sail.
Whilst it is inevitable that any thread comparing the merits of Ryanair with anything else will quickly become a place to vent over the current Ts and Cs there, for some it remains the "better" choice.
I believe the original poster was in a very similar position to me and I wish him the best in what, if he's anything like me, was a very hard decision to make.
He must be a manager because he dares to suggest Ryanair might be better FOR HIM than BA? There's more to life than airlines and aeroplanes.
I will say straight away that I have never flown for Ryanair. However I do fly for another loco and have gone round the mental loop of "BA or not". I applied, I got asked for interview, I thought about it, I thought about it some more.....and some more, and I withdrew my application.
As a career, looking solely and completely at the job and company alone, BA beats most if not all others. However, once you get to the kind of hours that they are asking for at the moment many of us have a much more complicated life than they did at 21 and it might just not fit. I certainly fit into that bracket and as much as BA fits my boyhood dream which will probably never go away completely, I'd rather see more of my young family and not commute to and from London. I'd rather have my higher captains salary now so my life is easier when my kids are young than have an even higher BA captains salary when my hair is white and my yacht needs a new sail.
Whilst it is inevitable that any thread comparing the merits of Ryanair with anything else will quickly become a place to vent over the current Ts and Cs there, for some it remains the "better" choice.
I believe the original poster was in a very similar position to me and I wish him the best in what, if he's anything like me, was a very hard decision to make.
He must be a manager because he dares to suggest Ryanair might be better FOR HIM than BA? There's more to life than airlines and aeroplanes.
Last edited by Busbo; 5th Feb 2016 at 14:52.
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The real problem is that our boyhood dreams are born when growing up in the 1980s or even worse before that. And the world we live in now is a totally different place, the mismatch is huge and what you would get is far from the life the typical legacy pilot would have back then. This is a fact, is no personal opinion etc..The days of taking a Jumbo to California and stay there for a week have long gone, if we do not come to terms with this we are delusional.
Long haul? Heavy jets? Legacies? Be my guest, and it's for sure a good deal for some. But we are talking a whole different animal, that should not for a second be confused (try proposing a 1970s captain 900 hrs a year of 3-4 sect days). Hence the existence of a thread like this which frankly, is a tough one to even begin to make up.
Having said that, there are new possibilities around the world which would have been untinkable even a decade ago (a young Westerner commanding a chinese jet for 25000$ a month??)..guess it all depends on how you look at it. The only thing I'm saying is many of us need to finally get real I'm afraid.
Long haul? Heavy jets? Legacies? Be my guest, and it's for sure a good deal for some. But we are talking a whole different animal, that should not for a second be confused (try proposing a 1970s captain 900 hrs a year of 3-4 sect days). Hence the existence of a thread like this which frankly, is a tough one to even begin to make up.
Having said that, there are new possibilities around the world which would have been untinkable even a decade ago (a young Westerner commanding a chinese jet for 25000$ a month??)..guess it all depends on how you look at it. The only thing I'm saying is many of us need to finally get real I'm afraid.
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Cadet Terms
Chaps, what can an FR cadet can expect to earn in his/her first year?
I ask because the info on my usual "Go To" source (PPJN) seems to be out of date / wildly different from what I've heard from other sources.
From what I can gather you pay for your TR £23500 approx then receive no pay while training. (how long on average?)
Once on the line I've heard many different approx figures quoted varying wildly between mid £20k's and mid E60k's. The latter much more "do-able" !
Sorry to detract away from the Ryanair / BA debate.
I ask because the info on my usual "Go To" source (PPJN) seems to be out of date / wildly different from what I've heard from other sources.
From what I can gather you pay for your TR £23500 approx then receive no pay while training. (how long on average?)
Once on the line I've heard many different approx figures quoted varying wildly between mid £20k's and mid E60k's. The latter much more "do-able" !
Sorry to detract away from the Ryanair / BA debate.
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Part of Normal Pilot's rant looks to be aimed at my last post !
I do apologise for not being up to speed on the "common knowledge" you speak about. I do hope your day gets better.
If anyone else has any helpful info in response to my last post, I would appreciate it.
Thanks
I do apologise for not being up to speed on the "common knowledge" you speak about. I do hope your day gets better.
If anyone else has any helpful info in response to my last post, I would appreciate it.
Thanks
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Don't think Normal Pilot's post was about you PTT. His original post was hijacked somewhat but the points raised were actually very interesting (HMRC chasing down contract pilots who have not paid tax).
Normal Pilot - because you say you are a pilot on here does not mean that you are. Your removal of the original post has left you open to that accusation especially as the content of the thread was very scathing of operators such as yours who use contract labour through "agencies".
Normal Pilot - because you say you are a pilot on here does not mean that you are. Your removal of the original post has left you open to that accusation especially as the content of the thread was very scathing of operators such as yours who use contract labour through "agencies".
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do and FR FO salaries are common knowledge, so why the above post, I don't know
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Ok, "my bad" if I got the wrong end. Not here for scathing banter just seeking info. I will look elsewhere
I'm seeing a lot of point scoring and one-upmanship on here and I think that as a community, we deserve better. Normal Pilot - if you know the salary, just let PressTheTit know! It'd take you less time than having a minor rant.
Everyone has to start from somewhere.
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I have the impression to be surrounded by imbeciles . . . . .or is it just that many read pprune on their i-phone & therefore can't actually see it correctly. 
With a little bit of effort it is all to easy to see that when Normal Pilot said "so why the above post" , he was referring to that blue boxed area immediately above his comment, and not PressTheTit's query ( which incidentally , could I am sure, be answered fairly adequately by using a little of his own time & the Search function. . . . . . I could also humbly suggest that if you want to be "spoon fed" Ryanair is not the place for you
)
Normal Pilot, I share your pain & understand your exit . . . . . . exhausting on here sometimes.
With a little bit of effort it is all to easy to see that when Normal Pilot said "so why the above post" , he was referring to that blue boxed area immediately above his comment, and not PressTheTit's query ( which incidentally , could I am sure, be answered fairly adequately by using a little of his own time & the Search function. . . . . . I could also humbly suggest that if you want to be "spoon fed" Ryanair is not the place for you
) Normal Pilot, I share your pain & understand your exit . . . . . . exhausting on here sometimes.
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Imbeciles is somewhat harsh in this case. I had actually pointed out that the comment did not relate to PTTs post so I guess I am not a total imbecile, but Normal Pilots full statement was "I have posted what job I do and FR FO salaries are common knowledge, so why the above post, I don't know." In my almost imbecilic mind it is reasonable for some to have thought he was referring to the post above about FR FO salaries.
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Normal I like the terminology, 'I was offered'. No you went to selection, passed and presumably did your homework before going to selection so you would have known about the bond before going. No one I've ever known has been offered a job, they are made aware of a vacancy and apply for selection and when they pass have the option of signing up or not, and only complete tools do so without checking the gig out first.
So that begs the question, as yoda said, 'why leave?'. If it's so good in fr why have you done and passed selection at two other airlines? Anyone with even limited knowledge of both knows the basic t and c's prevailing and no one rocks up without putting in time and effort so as not to fail. Am sorry but I don't believe for a second you casually passed both. So if you didn't pass or even attend either then the 'offered' comment is rubbish and I notice you never engaged about whether or not you took or passed BA selection, leading back to the first question, why leave? Or is this just another Ryanair advertisement? That's why I think you're in an office. Also deleting the thread didn't help either.
Someone else asked about what a Ryanair cadet can 'earn'. Does 'not being paid whilst training' and '23k' and '30k upfront for type rating' not ring any alarm bells? No can answer because whatever answer is given, it'll be less by the time you get there. Don't forget to minus the type rating from whatever the figure is, and if you are another disguised employee, don't forget to lamp on the fine from Hmrc. Tell me I'm wrong? Also subtract food, water, loss of license, car parking, ID, medical, hotels, and remember that disguised employees get fined for claiming back expenses they aren't entitled to. Just sayin.
So that begs the question, as yoda said, 'why leave?'. If it's so good in fr why have you done and passed selection at two other airlines? Anyone with even limited knowledge of both knows the basic t and c's prevailing and no one rocks up without putting in time and effort so as not to fail. Am sorry but I don't believe for a second you casually passed both. So if you didn't pass or even attend either then the 'offered' comment is rubbish and I notice you never engaged about whether or not you took or passed BA selection, leading back to the first question, why leave? Or is this just another Ryanair advertisement? That's why I think you're in an office. Also deleting the thread didn't help either.
Someone else asked about what a Ryanair cadet can 'earn'. Does 'not being paid whilst training' and '23k' and '30k upfront for type rating' not ring any alarm bells? No can answer because whatever answer is given, it'll be less by the time you get there. Don't forget to minus the type rating from whatever the figure is, and if you are another disguised employee, don't forget to lamp on the fine from Hmrc. Tell me I'm wrong? Also subtract food, water, loss of license, car parking, ID, medical, hotels, and remember that disguised employees get fined for claiming back expenses they aren't entitled to. Just sayin.
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Ryanair FO salaries are common knowledge? Hahahahaha. There's 70 bases, within that probably 20 different FO contracts, then there's the disguised and real employees. That's a lot of common knowledge.
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Ryantology at it finest. I didn't bash Ryanair once. I have never bashed them at all. I told everyone to watch their backs as the taxman is on his way. I told everyone not to look to Balpa, Ialpa or any other organisation for help as you are wasting every penny you give them (Ialpa binned MC in his case against fr, wouldn't even take a phone call).
I pointed out to you and others that you are working at a company that is breaking the law with regard to their refusal to provide water in the workplace. A company that has conditioned you and many others to believe being told you aren't tired whilst putting the evidence that you are straight in your face is ok. I also am trying to tell you and others that you'll get to see your kids a lot more and be a lot happier if you simply wake up to these techniques and stop allowing them. I tried to show you what they have done in the past, and that it is only a matter of time before your happy situation changes and it doesn't matter how much sucking up or staying quiet you do. I got kids too, and I don't play my violin. Stay quiet normal, things are good for you right now. Allow your less happy colleagues to cause a fuss. And then it'll swing around, and your colleagues will be happy and quiet, and you'll be at the receiving end.
This isn't bashing, these are facts. I have stuck to facts all along and when I've not stuck to them I have made is clear that I'm off on a rave. You're next normal, wait for it. That's indeed if you are a pilot as I'm still not sold on that one.
I pointed out to you and others that you are working at a company that is breaking the law with regard to their refusal to provide water in the workplace. A company that has conditioned you and many others to believe being told you aren't tired whilst putting the evidence that you are straight in your face is ok. I also am trying to tell you and others that you'll get to see your kids a lot more and be a lot happier if you simply wake up to these techniques and stop allowing them. I tried to show you what they have done in the past, and that it is only a matter of time before your happy situation changes and it doesn't matter how much sucking up or staying quiet you do. I got kids too, and I don't play my violin. Stay quiet normal, things are good for you right now. Allow your less happy colleagues to cause a fuss. And then it'll swing around, and your colleagues will be happy and quiet, and you'll be at the receiving end.
This isn't bashing, these are facts. I have stuck to facts all along and when I've not stuck to them I have made is clear that I'm off on a rave. You're next normal, wait for it. That's indeed if you are a pilot as I'm still not sold on that one.
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Am at pains to point out that i want to keep this business only. I admire fr as I would do the exact same as them if I got away with it, I just feel that at times they lose the run of themselves.
The purpose of my posts is to warn my pals all over fr that the taxman is really coming this time and the longer it takes you not to hear from him the worse.. 6% per six months since the day the bill was due. I know because that's what they billed me. Luckily the whole thing took a whole new direction when the disguised employee issue came to light as now it seems I'm not the one who owes the money. Go to BA, you won't have those problems.
Ialpa, Balpa, Ryanair, Brookfield, repa won't help you, they have form in that regard. You are, after all, self employed right? Hmmmm. So my advice there would be to stop paying them anything, it's being spent in restaurants. You can get better loss of license yourself.
Don't use the 'if it wasn't for fr I wouldn't have a job' defence. Most of you paid for your jobs, when you buy fried chicken the colonel doesn't make out he's doing you a favour, it's a business transaction. If I have anyone to thank for my start in aviation it's a certain business man from my home town and Tony Ryan and family. Sure some people have it figured out for what it is and are happy to continue to use it for that purpose, starting off, getting a command and moving on. Fair enough.
The purpose of my posts is to warn my pals all over fr that the taxman is really coming this time and the longer it takes you not to hear from him the worse.. 6% per six months since the day the bill was due. I know because that's what they billed me. Luckily the whole thing took a whole new direction when the disguised employee issue came to light as now it seems I'm not the one who owes the money. Go to BA, you won't have those problems.
Ialpa, Balpa, Ryanair, Brookfield, repa won't help you, they have form in that regard. You are, after all, self employed right? Hmmmm. So my advice there would be to stop paying them anything, it's being spent in restaurants. You can get better loss of license yourself.
Don't use the 'if it wasn't for fr I wouldn't have a job' defence. Most of you paid for your jobs, when you buy fried chicken the colonel doesn't make out he's doing you a favour, it's a business transaction. If I have anyone to thank for my start in aviation it's a certain business man from my home town and Tony Ryan and family. Sure some people have it figured out for what it is and are happy to continue to use it for that purpose, starting off, getting a command and moving on. Fair enough.
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Well at least that's honest.
Perhaps it might've been better if you had just started a new thread in the first place. Even this second thread started by you still has the same irrelevant title to your (perhaps entirely accurate) outbursts.
It sounds as if Normal Pilot isn't actually a contractor so what you say is of zero consequence to the specific question that was asked. I don't think mentioning that you have kids and currently enjoy spending a healthy amount of time with them is getting a violin out, quite the opposite! It was very relevant to the question being asked. I use the past tense because the question was already answered by the helpful quiet majority on here, many of whom choose to PM instead.
The "questionable" Ryanair tax arrangements are nothing new but your points and personal story will be of great interest to some I'm sure. However to suggest that someone is guilty of sucking up, keeping quiet, having been conditioned and not even a pilot just because they have little interest in your views which other than being about the same company have no bearing on their situation, I think that's a little strong.
Do you care that my local pub is at risk of being being turned into housing? It closed because of the state of the market that could very well affect your local to. Does this mean you must be interested in this and discuss it here and now otherwise you're only thinking of yourself? No, it does not.
Perhaps it might've been better if you had just started a new thread in the first place. Even this second thread started by you still has the same irrelevant title to your (perhaps entirely accurate) outbursts.
It sounds as if Normal Pilot isn't actually a contractor so what you say is of zero consequence to the specific question that was asked. I don't think mentioning that you have kids and currently enjoy spending a healthy amount of time with them is getting a violin out, quite the opposite! It was very relevant to the question being asked. I use the past tense because the question was already answered by the helpful quiet majority on here, many of whom choose to PM instead.
The "questionable" Ryanair tax arrangements are nothing new but your points and personal story will be of great interest to some I'm sure. However to suggest that someone is guilty of sucking up, keeping quiet, having been conditioned and not even a pilot just because they have little interest in your views which other than being about the same company have no bearing on their situation, I think that's a little strong.
Do you care that my local pub is at risk of being being turned into housing? It closed because of the state of the market that could very well affect your local to. Does this mean you must be interested in this and discuss it here and now otherwise you're only thinking of yourself? No, it does not.
Last edited by Busbo; 7th Feb 2016 at 11:58.