Limited company Newbie FR FO

[RijselPilot]

Hey guys, I'm new on Pprune so sorry if this isn't the right place to ask, but I don't know where to find my answer, so posting my question here.

I've just been hired by Ryanair as FO, and now I need to have my Limited company. I have the choice between 3 agencies to do so :
contracting Plus
O'connor and associates
Scanlon associates

I called the 3 of them in this order, spoke 30 minutes with the first one, very convincing, seems like a good agency which will help you a lot, contacted the second, she just asked me my email address so that she sends me a brochure (still waiting), and the 3rd one, not even able to reach him (so sent him a mail). Then I spoke to a friend's friend who's in Ryanair. He said he took Contracting plus, but wants to change because they are really helpful, easy to reach, and the "more legals", but you earn way more with the others.

My question is simple : Can you help me with my choice?

Thank you guys

And BTW, if anyone can tell me how to look for an answer in this forum that'd be great (I didn't figure out how to use it )

Cheers,
RijselPilot

[SID PLATE]

www.ryanairpilotgroup.com

www.repaweb.org

Register on the above. All the info you need is there.

Pass the word to your cadet colleagues.

[zerotohero]

Still amazed me this model of employment is available to new guys.

You don't know which agency to use and have no knowledge of any of them other than a phone call and a bit of digging and people are telling you one is more legal than the others but you will earn more with the others.

I mean seriously.

Your going to be solely working for Ryanair. They really need to get there act together and just employ people.


All just my own opinion though.

[McBruce]

Go with the most legal set up. Yes its very easy to take the one with the best yield but HMRC will investigate you, and thats costly. Now they can just issue you an APN (advanced payment notice) and its upto you at your cost to fight it. I was investigated for most of my years in RYR.

[RAT 5]

Go with the most legal set up. I was investigated for most of my years in RYR.

This suggests you have a 'horse's mouth' story to tell. Knowledge from the inside. Please share.

Bur surely a set up is legal or it is not. How can one be more legal (or less) than another? As some have asked, "how is this set up still continuing?"

[ezy320]

I would involve a tax consultant to back this up legally and take information here with some caution.

[Bobermo]

I was with Contracting Plus, the "most legal" some say.

But then again, I had my personal accountant take a look at the construction I was using in Spain, and he didn't agree with their setup..

@RAT 5, the main difference is in allowable expenses that can be deducted from your tax bill. CX+ is the most strict, Oconnor second and Bob Scanlon (nickname on the line is "dodgy Bob") allows pretty much everything (heard of guys deducting a Rolex)

My advise would be to take CX+, play by the rules and get everything that your accountant makes you do on paper, so that in case the tax man comes looking, you don't have to hide.

Register with the RPG and Repaweb for more info and guidance.

Ohw, and get out ASAP

[172_driver]

The accountant is supposed to be there to help you and give good advice, you are ultimately accountable for what expenses you put on the company. Prison is a conceivable punishment for economic crime, not that I have heard of it in Ryanair yet though.

[Avenger]

Capital Consulting - Why can?t I continue paying taxes through my Limited company?

This seems to sum it up in a nut shell and certainly reflects the mess the Spanish and Italian crews found themselves in. Its all very well for Ryanair to say" we pay you through your own limited company" but in reality the test cases of the social taxes being paid in Eire and the " contractor" paying marginal Corporation Tax on the " profits after all deductions" have floundered badly with crews spending more on tax consultants than the original " honest tax" would have been. Having said that, most folks are their own worst enemies and claim the most bizarre and outrageous deductions and wonder why the pack of cards falls. You will find when the sh8t hits the fan, these " tax consultants" have very little stomach for the fight and in short revert to the " well we said be reasonable, or lets give it a try" approach. People enter the profession to earn a living that provides the ability to purchase a house etc etc, with these shadow Limited Companies your borrowing powers are zero as it is based on the "company profit" or your " declared income" which you have reduced to practically nothing to avoid the tax burden. If RYR can offer UK crew direct contracts, all above board, why do they attempt this nonsense with the other crews outside the UK? I can tell you, the UK HMRC are a lot more reasonable with negotiations than the latino countries whom seem to take this matter very personally.. hence the new Spanish rules WEF 2014

[ezy320]

I personally would rather be indirectly employed via agencies, with higher net pay at the end of the day and plan for my own pension & social security than being shafted by high taxes in Spain, Italy or Portugal (e.g see easyJet contracts) where you will received no real benefit.

You just need a thorough legal backup tough and local knowledge of tax rules only some specialist can provide.

In the UK this is not uncommon with some significant tax alleviation.

[OhNoCB]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but from what friends of mine that are current or ex Ryanair have told me, the way things are set up doesn't allow what ezy320 talks about above. It may have been different on the Brookfield contracts which I don't think are being offered anymore but on the McGinley ones you aren't actually employed by the agency, you are "employed" by your own limited company. The result of this being that on top of your Irish income tax you have to pay not only the employee contribution of social security/national insurance in your base country but also the employer contribution - which from what one friend was telling me depending on the country can add up to a substantial amount. (30-40%++).

[zerotohero]

Thats the way it should have been done with the BRK contracts also I assume if it was done right..


The Hourly Block Rate paid by Ryanair to make that worthwhile would have to be so high that they may as well just employ you directly to begin with!.

But as I suspect a lot of people look at the top line and then hope to get a "Good Deal" with there accountants magic wand to keep more than they should..

It won't happen but people should vote with there feet and not accept this type of professional employment

All just my own humble opinion of course.

[speed_alive_rotate]

Has there not been a shift in FR towards hiring pilots direct and starting to phase out the agencies or is there still a huge amount starting out with FR on agency contracts?

[zerotohero]

I think experienced guys are given proper contracts and command upgrades but the Cadets are still on zero hour contracts.

Again just from what I hear and maybe wrong.

[No Fly Zone]

They are STILL At It?

OMG! If I did not already know this to be true, I'd ask why. I guess I still ask why. Ryan (and EJ?) make their own, in-house choices about who to hire, yet once selected, they still force you into one of several agencies to process your compensation? Am I missing something? Both are now Grown Up carriers, yet still do not directly employ their own pilots? Why on earth do you guys (and gals) put up with this crap. (Sadly, I know the answer: you simply need and want to work within your chosen profession and, at least with the larger ULCCs you do not have much choice.) My heart goes out to you folks. IMO it is a horrible way to have to earn a living, especially with the wide variety of income tax regulations in the EU. And of course, the minute you become adjusted to the tax situation one one country, you are apparently subject to involuntary transfer to a different domicile. Do the major EU ULCCs really save any significant monies by using this method? I doubt it. If they achieve any real benefit, it appears to be only the ability to dismiss or furlough pilots at will and without repercussions. Since I'm now fully retired and never had the (dis)pleasure of working in the EU, I guess this is not really my axe to grind. That said, I truly do not understand why you put up with such horrible terms. I also understand that organizing pilots into a large collective action has a lot in common with herding cats, if ~~90% simply took a few weeks off, those corporate grubbers might get the message. I feel for you, all of you!

[RAT 5]

if ~~90% simply took a few weeks off, those corporate grubbers might get the message. I feel for you, all of you!

True. What I find absolutely astonishing, and a no brainer in the real status of your employment, is when friends of mine tell me that even though they are 'self-employed' they have to ask permission to take time off. That is true of even single days and/or a week; even with 2 months notice. Mostly, especially in summer it is refused. Doesn't sound very 'self-employed does it?

[172_driver]

All the responsibilities of operating through your own company, but none of the rights.

[Dan Winterland]

What I find absolutely astonishing, and a no brainer in the real status of your employment, is when friends of mine tell me that even though they are 'self-employed' they have to ask permission to take time off. That is true of even single days and/or a week; even with 2 months notice. Mostly, especially in summer it is refused. Doesn't sound very 'self-employed does it?

You can use this to your advantage in limited circumstances. On pilot I know employed his wife (who kept her maiden name) as his company secretary. When he decided he'd had enough and got another job and decided that as a contractor he was no longer contracting to RYR, they only had her number (a pay as you go number only for RYR use) and weren't too happy to be told that his services were no longer available.

[172_driver]

You can use this to your advantage in limited circumstances. On pilot I know employed his wife (who kept her maiden name) as his company secretary. When he decided he'd had enough and got another job and decided that as a contractor he was no longer contracting to RYR, they only had her number (a pay as you go number only for RYR use) and weren't too happy to be told that his services were no longer available.

As good of a story that is, no longer possible. For those who chose the contractor path, you have to engage with a Ryanair approved accountant who will put you as a director of an already existing company - a 'shell company'. You effectively loose all control of how your business is run.

[AndreFranco]

Shouldn't legality be common to all of the companies?
I'm currenctly passing through the same situation, having to decide between companies. Some pilots I've talked to have chosen O'Connor but it seems more expensive than the others so I can't really understand the advantages after reading the standard text each one of the companies has sent to me by e-mail.

Can anyone clarify me? I would by thankful in advance!