Turkish Airlines THY working conditions - worse than announced?

[TypeIV]

Those rumours have been heard for a while online and on the smoking areas but they tend to have little substance.

[Kirks gusset]

Agreed! those same rumours have been circulating for the past 6 years! Still same old faces in crew area, just a bit more worn down and tanned.

[bob777]

Looking at the 105 hours rosters..it would seem a bit more than a rumor. Just wonder where they find the time to get tanned. According to reliable data attrition is at 40%. Your deceptive attempts dear..type4 ..kirk..and de facto...seems to be detrimental not quite the opposite. Are you maybe really convinced of dealing wth idiots here ? 737 parked I hear..

[TypeIV]

Don't get me wrong, I would like to see a healthier market where supply and demand is key now that the market, in some respects, is turning into a market in favour for experienced pilots.

However, since pilots shut their mouths and start backstabbing each other the more pressure you put on them, these attrition rates seldomly turn out to be real. For every 10 pilots saying s/he will resign, only one will, the rest will be moaning on this forum.

Until that one person resigns, management will already have found two new hungry candidates to replace the former one.

[Kirks gusset]

Bob, I can't comment on attrition rates, and with respect, neither can you, in Turkey accurate information is as likely as tits on a frog.. what I do know for a fact is that most of the Ex Pats leaving in the next 2 months is due to age..and that's just a handful.. by conclusion we can assume they stayed until their last flights as they were too old to jump ( well zimmer hop) to another job..There were also 2 Captains that went to Quatar as FOs to "live the dream" it is generally known the 737 fleet this time of the year has the most demanding roster, but most guys forget that and focus on the money.. The short haul fleet is a ticking bomb waiting for better opportunities and is nothing like the LH fleet in terms of lifestyle.

[skyship007]

If you have an agressive, penny pinching and safety disorientated bunch of senior flyboys in charge of any airline, things only change when the pilots start to leave faster than they can train replacement drivers.

Voting with your feet really does work and some of you should try doing just that.

[bob777]

I can and I can tell you that slightly more than one in three expat pilot ever recruited is no longer working for THY. The deal, the fairness, the lifestyle, the professional environment and the career opportunities were far too good.. they felt an unsustainable guilt on taking advantage....
If I was in charge I would start to ask my self a few questions, especially on the financial cost of such permanent recruitment drive that and who is really taking benefit of the situation
But such introspection seems not to have been inserted in the Turk genetic code and/or they have been badly advised. Some of such advisers probably hide behind some of the nick names here. Kirk and the like are probably part of the HR internet propaganda and rumor discrediting/ milling team.Skyship007 don't worry many actually are.

[kumbaya]

Lots of guys are complaining, but out of the group (expat FO's) of people I know only one is leaving and another is applying elsewhere.
My friends in 330/777 are certainly not considering to leave at the moment.

Many of the complaints are from guys that feel they were entitled to a wide body upgrade but didn't get it. And now they think of leaving for the sandpit to fly a wide body.....

[Kirks gusset]

Bob, I am not part of the HR machine and never will be, so, your statistics are somewhat meaningless, akin to saying 30 percent of all pilots are now retired.. The problem with this thread is some folk have difficulty isolating "working conditions" from "cultural conditions". IF guys were subject to the same environmental conditions but working from their " home country" I very much doubt they would complain, BUT, if they could get a job back home they would already be there.. As highlighted, some new gripes arising from being stuck on SH fleet, however, How can anyone compare living on the Bosphorus with 5% tax against living in a tenement block in Leeds.
Bob, you highlight pilot retention issues,we are no where close to the attrition seen in some airlines, recruitment is an on-going issue with the lack of Credible candidates..

[bob777]

Kumbaia at the end it all gets down to where you come from, your experience and what option you have. Sure to leave you still need to pass a screening somewhere else. For you and some younger less experienced guys getting to fly a wide body might be a fulfilling achievement but in your place I would be more concerned about my real career opportunities than in posting pictures and your presence in "exotic" location on your FB account. Beside FO are on the same pay scale therefore you are improperly calling it an "upgrade". And in THY still upgrades to captaincy for expat FO are a big question mark...

[Kirks gusset]

These would be the " new lower minimums" agreed April 2014 then! Previously eligibility for upgrade was 5 years after passing the type rating, this was changed to 5 years after " licence issue" except for ex military where it can be 3 years or even 2 if they have enough jet time. Many ex military guys were chopper pilots and they need longer. The threshold was lowered from 4000 hrs to 3000 hours, however, it doesn't effect much as everyone is in the same boat. More than 50% of the yabanci FOs do not have university degree 4 years and thus they are not in the running. Some Foreign FOs were bumped to 777 as they were never in the running, some are studying for degrees but in reality they could consider jumping ship with 2000 hrs wide body, having said that, again only the Sand Pit is available. The perception of being " put back" occurs with the hiring of the ex mil guys that jump the queue, having said that, they tend to be older and generally more experienced in any event, more mature etc etc. If the question is " is it an old boys club" the answer would be " maybe"

[porkflyer]

I really promised my self I was not intervening in this forum anymore..but Kirk.. you really are magnet...
What the hell are you talking about ? Agreement...what agreement .. helicopter pilots.. old boy club...are you for real?

[bob777]

Kirk ah ah ah... you are beating your self in your attempt of disinformation. We are talking about the upgrade requirement for civilian pilot (military one would generally do a great favor to THY by remaining such). Many expat FO meet the requirement for upgrade without any degree (not a requirement anymore) and have been waiting quite long time. In 2013 those that joined before were moved back 700 plus position in seniority with no explanation and with this 500 hour reduction for locals will see another huge amount of local stepping on front of them at the risk of the flying public In the sand pit at least you get a fair treatment.

[kumbaya]

Well, firstly I don't even waste my time with Facebook.

And, I agree. Wide body is not really an upgrade. Wrong choice of words.
On the other hand, the Turks most definitely see it as an upgrade .

I couldn't care less about the machine, for me the schedule and the possibility to travel home are most important (very big + in THY at the moment). When it comes to career, in THY nobody knows whats going on i guess. However, the first guys have been upgraded.

If there would be a really good option I guess most of us will jump ship anyhow. But currently not many nice gigs around. Unless you want to be in the sandpit etc.

[Kirks gusset]

Pork fat, if you spent half as much time studying the DGCA regulations as you do bleating you would improve yourself.. Old boys club refers to the number of ex-miltary guys that know each other and by default their passage to command is much simpler.The Naval help guys that joined as FOs have to do more hours as the way fixed wing and rotary are factored..can you understand that? If you only look at the whole picture you will see whats going on, unfortunately you seem to suffer with tunnel vision..Bob, unfortunately you have been misinformed.. lets leave it at that. Sand pit fair treatment... holy smoke! lastly unless Part A changed 5 minutes ago, and Part D was updated 3 minutes ago, you still need a degree or 4 years high school Diploma. And BOB if these " people" are so unhappy why don't they just quit? more hot air I guess!

[captplaystation]

Kirks Gusset said "How can anyone compare living on the Bosphorus with 5% tax against living in a tenement block in Leeds."

I guess the only thing comparable would be having to listen to the bleedin Mosques wailing away the whole time. . . . . . .


Doubt the 5% tax makes up for the drop in "real earnings" incurred by the currency rate if you still have a life outside of Turkey.

[furbpilot]

I seldom take part on this discussion but I can confirm that:

- you do not need a degree if you meet certain flight time criteria ( as per THY updated upgrade procedure)
- there is no requirement set by Turkish DGAC to be a degree holder for upgrade
- seniority was suddenly "adjusted".

[november.sierra]

The question that remains is: are non-Turkish F/O's being upgraded or not?

Let's say someone joined now on the B737 fleet that meets all the requirements for a command upgrade (i.e. degree and corresponding flight time), how long could they expect to wait for the upgrade, and is the commuting roster in place now?

[furbpilot]

Three in the process a couple more called for upgrade interview. All very high hours after 4/5 years in the company. Commuting only on long haul fleet. THY advertising for 5-2-1 or 4-3-1 for narrow fleet. Out.

[Arewerunning]

I know of one ex Lufthansa FO that is about to finish His upgrade. Incidentally he has a degree but they did not even asked since he is carrying more then 8000hrs jet. Joined the company few month ago. If I understood correctly is a special deal between TK and LH...

Rgrds