Air France pilots strike
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HeavyAirbourne,
We have quite the same numbers here in AF. What we are told is those 2% are eventually the profit .... no comment.
As for the strike, negociations went on late last night with little result:
- Transavia Europe project is burried
- We are still negociating better contract for Transavia France
Thank you for your support, it helps because it's hard
If only KLM guys could back us up. (In fact they are, but not in the french way :-) )
We have quite the same numbers here in AF. What we are told is those 2% are eventually the profit .... no comment.
As for the strike, negociations went on late last night with little result:
- Transavia Europe project is burried
- We are still negociating better contract for Transavia France
Thank you for your support, it helps because it's hard
If only KLM guys could back us up. (In fact they are, but not in the french way :-) )
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Good point.
They were to invest 1 billion euros in that project.
My opinion is it would have been a huge lost of money.
We just can't compete on low-cost. This market -IMHO- is already saturated, and we can't open lines to the hubs of or competitors if we want to preserve our LongHaul CDG flights.
They were to invest 1 billion euros in that project.
My opinion is it would have been a huge lost of money.
We just can't compete on low-cost. This market -IMHO- is already saturated, and we can't open lines to the hubs of or competitors if we want to preserve our LongHaul CDG flights.
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So what about Iberia (and BA) with Iberia Express and Vueling? What about Lufthansa with Germanwings?
IMO, and that is sad, if we look at the medium haul market, there are not anymore 2 parallel markets which once used to be the legacy model and the LCC model. Today, that's over, the only strong model is the LCC while the legacy model is dying very quickly.
And don't tell me that LCC model is only for poor passengers going to a camping somewhere for their holidays. The LCC, nowdays. offer the SAME service as LH, BA, KLM in economy class, and they do offer a correct service for business passengers. Look at Vueling, for example, they offer a premium service with fast track airport security, priority boarding, mileage, a comfy seat with nobody on the middle seat, free baggages, they offer newspapers and food, they offer flights flexibility and free rebooking. And so do easyJet. Ryanair is now going the exact same way and they now want to attract those business passengers.
What do AF, AZ, BA, LH do with their business passengers? Priority boarding, free baggage, free news papers, nobody seated on the middle seat, ugly adjusting curtains to ridiculously split the cabin into 2 parts, booking flexibility, the same !!, but they will sell a Rome to Paris at 900 euros when Vueling or easyJet will sell it for 170 euros (all extra services included).
This industry will only get worse and worse and you guys are on the same boat.
IMO, and that is sad, if we look at the medium haul market, there are not anymore 2 parallel markets which once used to be the legacy model and the LCC model. Today, that's over, the only strong model is the LCC while the legacy model is dying very quickly.
And don't tell me that LCC model is only for poor passengers going to a camping somewhere for their holidays. The LCC, nowdays. offer the SAME service as LH, BA, KLM in economy class, and they do offer a correct service for business passengers. Look at Vueling, for example, they offer a premium service with fast track airport security, priority boarding, mileage, a comfy seat with nobody on the middle seat, free baggages, they offer newspapers and food, they offer flights flexibility and free rebooking. And so do easyJet. Ryanair is now going the exact same way and they now want to attract those business passengers.
What do AF, AZ, BA, LH do with their business passengers? Priority boarding, free baggage, free news papers, nobody seated on the middle seat, ugly adjusting curtains to ridiculously split the cabin into 2 parts, booking flexibility, the same !!, but they will sell a Rome to Paris at 900 euros when Vueling or easyJet will sell it for 170 euros (all extra services included).
This industry will only get worse and worse and you guys are on the same boat.
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As a legacy pilot, I can tell you that no one here has their heads in the sand. We realize that the world changes quickly, and that if our company is going to be around for another 95 years, we need to change with it. But that doesn't relieve the management of sticking to their part of the bargain, just like I do when I say that I will show up for work on time. Air France agreed to fly a maximum of fourteen aircraft under the Transavia France brand without union pilots. Then they, totally on their own accord and without any attempt at negotiation, decided that the real number should be one hundred aircraft. It is no wonder that the Air France pilots felt forced to take this drastic action.
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heavy.airborne: You might be interested in this data collected by MIT as part of their Airline Data Project. Looks quite detailed. Here's a link to the section on employee compensation, which includes not only pilots, but cabin attendants, ground crew and others.
Airline Data Project
Airline Data Project
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I have nothing but respect for our AF colleagues.
At least they have had the balls to stand up to this industry wide attempt to screw pilots once and for all.
I only wish we had some of the same resolve.
Bon courage mes amis
At least they have had the balls to stand up to this industry wide attempt to screw pilots once and for all.
I only wish we had some of the same resolve.
Bon courage mes amis
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Maybe It's time all European airline pilots say this is enough... Coodinate a European strike for all Airlines in Europe.. One Day a week until politissions in Europe changes some rulles and laws so all pilots in Europe don't have to bend over Day after day in bad working conditions and crazy contracts. Contracts should be forbidden in this Industry..
But i guess all pilots are happy and Will just continue with there work and i live in a dreamworld..
But i guess all pilots are happy and Will just continue with there work and i live in a dreamworld..
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If there is a genuine concern about traditional T's & C's being eroded, and there surely is, by the use of contract crews who are allowing themselves to be abused for various reasons, then what coordinated action/response is ECA making?
Here the AF guys are trying to stop the rot. Is it too little too late? What have the other heavy weights been doing for the past few years? Have they just woken up to the fact that the world is changing, but they felt insulated? Now they see the attacking hordes at their own fortress gates they choose to take up cudgel. Good on them, but where were the Spanish, Germans, Italians and others, under the ECA umbrella, a few years ago when the slippery slope was getting ever steeper? Did they feel the flood gates would not be breached? Years ago the governments allowed the legacy carriers to fly the flag around the world. There was a definite difference in the service offered by each airline. Now the share holders rule the roost and airlines are all much of a muchness. There is a perception that salaries are too high and work is too soft. I don't agree, but there is a perception. Has that truly been counter argued? I don't think so. The public demand cheap food; farmers are screwed. The public demand cheap travel and the crews are screwed. Both groups in public ignorance of the truth. The same is true of so many other industries. the public demand ever cheaper XYZ and the share holders demand ever better returns. The contradiction and resulting conflict will bring about a disturbed future.
Here the AF guys are trying to stop the rot. Is it too little too late? What have the other heavy weights been doing for the past few years? Have they just woken up to the fact that the world is changing, but they felt insulated? Now they see the attacking hordes at their own fortress gates they choose to take up cudgel. Good on them, but where were the Spanish, Germans, Italians and others, under the ECA umbrella, a few years ago when the slippery slope was getting ever steeper? Did they feel the flood gates would not be breached? Years ago the governments allowed the legacy carriers to fly the flag around the world. There was a definite difference in the service offered by each airline. Now the share holders rule the roost and airlines are all much of a muchness. There is a perception that salaries are too high and work is too soft. I don't agree, but there is a perception. Has that truly been counter argued? I don't think so. The public demand cheap food; farmers are screwed. The public demand cheap travel and the crews are screwed. Both groups in public ignorance of the truth. The same is true of so many other industries. the public demand ever cheaper XYZ and the share holders demand ever better returns. The contradiction and resulting conflict will bring about a disturbed future.
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I say : KUDOS TO YOU, BOYS AND GIRLS ! 
My respect (and hope) for the pilots population in Europe is rising back up a bit thanks to the French. If only British (and other nationalities for that matter) pilots had only a portion of the b@lls the french have, our industry wouldn't be the sad swamp it is today. This is a bold move against the dissection operated by ever more greedy managements dying for a quick buck.
Those pilots bashing the French only deserve what they will live and be 10 years down the road.
My respect (and hope) for the pilots population in Europe is rising back up a bit thanks to the French. If only British (and other nationalities for that matter) pilots had only a portion of the b@lls the french have, our industry wouldn't be the sad swamp it is today. This is a bold move against the dissection operated by ever more greedy managements dying for a quick buck.
Those pilots bashing the French only deserve what they will live and be 10 years down the road.
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Looks like Ryanair, Easy, Wizz and Vueling continue to put the squeeze on another big Euro airline as well:
?Air Berlin cancels 787 order - 9/26/2014 - Flight Global
?Air Berlin cancels 787 order - 9/26/2014 - Flight Global
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Check out the situation with Qantas on the Australian site. The CEO is trying to make money by transferring assets and effort to a low cost sugsidiary. So called Main Line is suffering and there are problems for pilots and other staff in this situation.
Maybe It's time all European airline pilots say this is enough... Coodinate a European strike for all Airlines in Europe..
Have a look at what iansolo said at the end of permalink #21: "If only KLM guys could back us up."
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Well done for standing up for yourselves.
All I know is in my airline we very soon are going to be told how we need to change to compete. I am open minded to change and modernisation if the essence is let's work you more efficiently and productively. Not just harder but in the same old inefficient ways. I see endless waste and to compete with LCC they need to trim the endless number of suits the mill about seemingly doing very little
All I know is in my airline we very soon are going to be told how we need to change to compete. I am open minded to change and modernisation if the essence is let's work you more efficiently and productively. Not just harder but in the same old inefficient ways. I see endless waste and to compete with LCC they need to trim the endless number of suits the mill about seemingly doing very little
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Back to work
BBC News - Air France pilots end long strike
Air France pilots have called off a strike that has lasted for two weeks and cost the airline hundreds of millions of euros.
Pilots' union SNPL and the airline have yet to reach an agreement over a dispute about the carrier's plans to expand its budget subsidiary Transavia.
However, a union spokesman said it was ending the strike so negotiations could "continue in a calmer climate".
The loss-making airline wants to cut costs to compete with budget carriers.
Although the strike is now over, the two parties failed to resolve their differences during weekend talks.
Air France said it "deeply regrets that, despite lengthy negotiations since the beginning of the conflict (including 15 hours yesterday)... the balanced and reasonable protocol to end the conflict proposed by management has not been signed by the unions".
On Friday night, the airline rejected an offer by SNPL to end the strike if an independent mediator was appointed.
The government, which owns a 16% stake in the airline and has pressed hard for an end to the strike, also rejected the offer.
As a result, Air France announced late on Saturday that it would be operating less than half of its scheduled flights on Sunday.
It has now said flights will "gradually return to normal" from Tuesday - those flights cancelled on Sunday and Monday would remain so.
Unresolved differences The airline and union will continue talks over employment contracts.
In a short statement, the SNPL said its "determination remains intact".
Air France pilots have called off a strike that has lasted for two weeks and cost the airline hundreds of millions of euros.
Pilots' union SNPL and the airline have yet to reach an agreement over a dispute about the carrier's plans to expand its budget subsidiary Transavia.
However, a union spokesman said it was ending the strike so negotiations could "continue in a calmer climate".
The loss-making airline wants to cut costs to compete with budget carriers.
Although the strike is now over, the two parties failed to resolve their differences during weekend talks.
Air France said it "deeply regrets that, despite lengthy negotiations since the beginning of the conflict (including 15 hours yesterday)... the balanced and reasonable protocol to end the conflict proposed by management has not been signed by the unions".
On Friday night, the airline rejected an offer by SNPL to end the strike if an independent mediator was appointed.
The government, which owns a 16% stake in the airline and has pressed hard for an end to the strike, also rejected the offer.
As a result, Air France announced late on Saturday that it would be operating less than half of its scheduled flights on Sunday.
It has now said flights will "gradually return to normal" from Tuesday - those flights cancelled on Sunday and Monday would remain so.
Unresolved differences The airline and union will continue talks over employment contracts.
In a short statement, the SNPL said its "determination remains intact".
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Interesting Aviation Week Editorial about AF Pilot Strike
Someone forwarded this interesting editorial from Aviation Week (written by Pierre Sparaco) to me - it is timely and I think it applies to many of the other legacy Euro airlines, but AF in particular:
Once again, Air France-KLM’s management finds itself blocked from implementing a change in strategy. And once again, it is the cockpit crews who are balking. Crews and their unions have not yet come to terms with the increasingly dominant role of low-cost carriers in the European airline industry, so they routinely reject the urgent need to restructure France’s air transport sector.
However, the Air France-KLM group is nearly equally culpable for the disconnect between management and personnel and has contributed its own share of missteps. Long before the Franco-Dutch consolidation move became a reality, Air France turned a blind eye to the growing threat from the low-cost sector. Fifteen years ago, a top airline executive told me the low-cost business model would not succeed and claimed that startups such as Ryanair would never acquire a significant market share.
Today, European low-cost airlines carry a combined 200 million passengers per year with a fleet of nearly 1,000 aircraft. Moreover, Ryanair is now the biggest intra-European carrier and is planning to operate 520 Boeing 737s in the next 10 years, up from 320, CEO Michael O’Leary says.
Air France now acknowledges the need to launch a robust counterattack; it plans to expand its low-cost subsidiary, Transavia, which has two branches—one in France, the other in the Netherlands. Air France-KLM Chairman/CEO Alexandre de Juniac says Transavia will operate up to 100 aircraft by 2018. But the long-overdue growth plan could be delayed or even canceled if pilots refuse to ratify it. One of the many issues that has pilots upset is management’s plan to implement a two-scale salary policy.
Transavia pilots, whose ranks include former Air France pilots, are expected to be paid at a slightly lower rate than they now receive, to help the airline achieve competitive direct operating costs, a prerequisite to a successful counterattack in the European route system. SNPL, France’s dominant cockpit crew union, firmly rejects such a plan and claims all Air France-KLM group pilots should benefit from unified salary scales. In the last few weeks, the dispute has become even more heated and resulted in a walkout plan that could jeopardize the company’s efforts to restore profitability.
Given the decades-old acrimony between the union and management, many analysts are skeptical of an early resolution. SNPL-member pilots have a long tradition of vindictive reactions that extend well beyond operational matters. For example, the SNPL long rejected the implementation of two-person cockpit crews, which forced Air France to cancel an order for Boeing 737s. Today, union representatives are claiming they should have been canvassed, giving them a chance to reject or at least debate a plan to establish a new salary policy.
But there is a key difference this time around. Air France is no longer a state-controlled company and no arbitration can be expected from the government of Prime Minister Manuel Valls. The outgoing transport minister, Frederic Cuvillier, showed little interest in the French airlines’ difficulties and his successor, Alain Vidalies, seems ready to follow his predecessor’s route. In other words, Air France is now paying for being so slow to react to low-cost competition and for not convincing its pilots (as well as the court of public opinion) that a former flag carrier—now operating in a fully deregulated environment—could be so seriously endangered by new competition forces. Recently, a political leader warned: “Even airlines die.”
Adopting the broad view, it is key to understand why and how pilots succeeded in extending their perimeter of influence. This conduct began to materialize in the 1960s and has never been studied as it should, by psychologists, not aviation experts. French pilots are extremely proud of their prestigious past; they take pride in referring to famous pioneers and the Aeropostale’s glory days. However, this adulation of the past is interfering with the “course correction” needed to adapt to modern times. This balking is detrimental to the airline and its personnel alike.
Today, U.K.-headquartered EasyJet is the second-largest “French” domestic operator and Ryanair is Europe’s biggest carrier in terms of passengers flown (more than 81 million this year). Air France, however, continues its drastic decline. French airline pilots could be accused of writing Air France’s epitaph.
Once again, Air France-KLM’s management finds itself blocked from implementing a change in strategy. And once again, it is the cockpit crews who are balking. Crews and their unions have not yet come to terms with the increasingly dominant role of low-cost carriers in the European airline industry, so they routinely reject the urgent need to restructure France’s air transport sector.
However, the Air France-KLM group is nearly equally culpable for the disconnect between management and personnel and has contributed its own share of missteps. Long before the Franco-Dutch consolidation move became a reality, Air France turned a blind eye to the growing threat from the low-cost sector. Fifteen years ago, a top airline executive told me the low-cost business model would not succeed and claimed that startups such as Ryanair would never acquire a significant market share.
Today, European low-cost airlines carry a combined 200 million passengers per year with a fleet of nearly 1,000 aircraft. Moreover, Ryanair is now the biggest intra-European carrier and is planning to operate 520 Boeing 737s in the next 10 years, up from 320, CEO Michael O’Leary says.
Air France now acknowledges the need to launch a robust counterattack; it plans to expand its low-cost subsidiary, Transavia, which has two branches—one in France, the other in the Netherlands. Air France-KLM Chairman/CEO Alexandre de Juniac says Transavia will operate up to 100 aircraft by 2018. But the long-overdue growth plan could be delayed or even canceled if pilots refuse to ratify it. One of the many issues that has pilots upset is management’s plan to implement a two-scale salary policy.
Transavia pilots, whose ranks include former Air France pilots, are expected to be paid at a slightly lower rate than they now receive, to help the airline achieve competitive direct operating costs, a prerequisite to a successful counterattack in the European route system. SNPL, France’s dominant cockpit crew union, firmly rejects such a plan and claims all Air France-KLM group pilots should benefit from unified salary scales. In the last few weeks, the dispute has become even more heated and resulted in a walkout plan that could jeopardize the company’s efforts to restore profitability.
Given the decades-old acrimony between the union and management, many analysts are skeptical of an early resolution. SNPL-member pilots have a long tradition of vindictive reactions that extend well beyond operational matters. For example, the SNPL long rejected the implementation of two-person cockpit crews, which forced Air France to cancel an order for Boeing 737s. Today, union representatives are claiming they should have been canvassed, giving them a chance to reject or at least debate a plan to establish a new salary policy.
But there is a key difference this time around. Air France is no longer a state-controlled company and no arbitration can be expected from the government of Prime Minister Manuel Valls. The outgoing transport minister, Frederic Cuvillier, showed little interest in the French airlines’ difficulties and his successor, Alain Vidalies, seems ready to follow his predecessor’s route. In other words, Air France is now paying for being so slow to react to low-cost competition and for not convincing its pilots (as well as the court of public opinion) that a former flag carrier—now operating in a fully deregulated environment—could be so seriously endangered by new competition forces. Recently, a political leader warned: “Even airlines die.”
Adopting the broad view, it is key to understand why and how pilots succeeded in extending their perimeter of influence. This conduct began to materialize in the 1960s and has never been studied as it should, by psychologists, not aviation experts. French pilots are extremely proud of their prestigious past; they take pride in referring to famous pioneers and the Aeropostale’s glory days. However, this adulation of the past is interfering with the “course correction” needed to adapt to modern times. This balking is detrimental to the airline and its personnel alike.
Today, U.K.-headquartered EasyJet is the second-largest “French” domestic operator and Ryanair is Europe’s biggest carrier in terms of passengers flown (more than 81 million this year). Air France, however, continues its drastic decline. French airline pilots could be accused of writing Air France’s epitaph.
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Has Has Air France just finished a 2 week pilot strike?
Not it would seem if the lack of information and comment on this thread is to be taken as gospel.
(Apologies for double verb in question which I haven't managed to edit.)
(Apologies for double verb in question which I haven't managed to edit.)
Last edited by BigFrank; 30th Sep 2014 at 21:02. Reason: Error in strap line