Disgraceful Balpa and Unite Unions sold out bmi Crew!!
There are tales of BMI guys getting a very hard time at OPC's & LPC's that is not justified by the normal professional standards,
I can only talk for the Boeing side of things but in my experience the trainers are pretty objective and the system (the likes of the feedback loop Locked Door refers to) tends to sort out any overly zealous individuals...
A&C
You demean yourself with comments like that. Some ex BMI pilots did find the BA sims hard work, nothing to do with being given a hard time.
I bet some would have failed the BA recruitment procedures as well. As would some pilots from any background.
I bet some would have failed the BA recruitment procedures as well. As would some pilots from any background.
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Others have briefly touched on a major issue....It is "the world owes me a living"
mindset.
Sorry guys and girls, your parents lied to you.
The truth is, from the point where the company is losing money, It's subsidising you, your job and your family Yes, charity....Why?....Well, if they can fund the business for long enough, they hope to turn the financial corner and every one's happy.
The business of takeover is somewhat complex. the easy way would be to let the ailing airline go bust, buy any the assets from the liquidator, needed for expansion to fill the market gap, take on new staff, cherry-picked from the unemployed pool and away you go, without any Legacy obligations or liabilities.
The only upside I can see, of rescuing a failing company, is that the operating infrastructure is already in place.
NOW! WAKEY WAKEY AT THE BACK
The infrastructure does not work properly, otherwise the firm would be making profits...so, it's inevitable that "dead wood", duplications and unneccessary staff will be culled.
The rowing over seniority, perks and the like, is just sowing the seeds for killing-off ailing businesses and allowing vultures to exploit the carcase....staff will be reliant on Government safety-nets, as it's likely the bean-counters had already hocked everything to the eyeballs in order to try to stave off bankruptcy.
you can't take anything out of an empty pot!
It's a sickener , to lose your job and have to start at the bottom again, conversely, it's equally galling to work hard, toe the Company line, do your best to be a model employee and loyal company-man, and what's your reward?- some bugger slots above you in the rankings, having not gone through the same , rigorous procedures to "get on board", never done a thing for the Company and they're treated better than you, purely because they worked for an ailing employer.
Life's a bitch and then you die!
mindset.
Sorry guys and girls, your parents lied to you.
The truth is, from the point where the company is losing money, It's subsidising you, your job and your family Yes, charity....Why?....Well, if they can fund the business for long enough, they hope to turn the financial corner and every one's happy.
The business of takeover is somewhat complex. the easy way would be to let the ailing airline go bust, buy any the assets from the liquidator, needed for expansion to fill the market gap, take on new staff, cherry-picked from the unemployed pool and away you go, without any Legacy obligations or liabilities.
The only upside I can see, of rescuing a failing company, is that the operating infrastructure is already in place.
NOW! WAKEY WAKEY AT THE BACK
The infrastructure does not work properly, otherwise the firm would be making profits...so, it's inevitable that "dead wood", duplications and unneccessary staff will be culled.The rowing over seniority, perks and the like, is just sowing the seeds for killing-off ailing businesses and allowing vultures to exploit the carcase....staff will be reliant on Government safety-nets, as it's likely the bean-counters had already hocked everything to the eyeballs in order to try to stave off bankruptcy.
you can't take anything out of an empty pot!
It's a sickener , to lose your job and have to start at the bottom again, conversely, it's equally galling to work hard, toe the Company line, do your best to be a model employee and loyal company-man, and what's your reward?- some bugger slots above you in the rankings, having not gone through the same , rigorous procedures to "get on board", never done a thing for the Company and they're treated better than you, purely because they worked for an ailing employer.
Life's a bitch and then you die!
In praise of BALPA and debutants
I have always been a member of a flying union and after I emigrated I became an associate Balpa member for a number of years.
Before anyone whinges about Balpa read a little bit of history starting at Jarrow.
In BEA most of us were either in the union or “invited” to join the other lot. It was a necessity. I worked on the technical committee which was designed to advance aviation safety in a way that the “authorities” didn’t. What we don’t read about is the behind the scenes negotiations – often carried out for non Balpa members by members in their spare time. It’s not a perfect system but it helps.
One of my mates had a total strike called which lead to his reinstatement after he upset “the other lot”.
Like Dan Air and BMI, BEA hamsters were sold out when BA was formed...it took many of my mates 20 years to get a command...but it gave us continuing employment (BEA would have eventually folded especially with our safety record) and moi the chance to see how the big boys flew and lived.
I never regretted it and sometimes the grass IS greener.
I don't agree with the apparent stance on Aerotoxic syndrome but one only has to look at some of the last few years newspaper articles (those which haven't "disappeared") to realise that there is a lot more going on behind the scenes which we can only guess at.
Now to debutants.
The pay for both cabin crew and Hamsters was abysmal such that the girls lasted less than a year flying and had to subsidize their salaries. Either you had a rich boyfriend or parents, fiddled the bars or “went out” with first class passengers.
We had a few luxury trips which were worth a week’s wages in allowances...Med nightstops. The best was a three day Nicosia where we stayed in the best hotel..raided the first class bar before we disembarked and started off with a room party in a 5 star suite. We generally ended up skinny dipping in the hotel pool – around 2 AM.
Unfortunately the “training fleet” took most of the cream trips – a great BA tradition - so I only got one every few months.
Did one to Tel Aviv which was so naughty that we called Athens Station on the way back to inform LHR that we were going crew fatigue.
Anyway I was part of the great experiment to put two second officers – one half trained – straight onto the Trident...as we know it miserably failed leading to Britain’s worst aviation disaster unless of course you believe the recent TV stitch up.
This put me on the Trident 2 fleet – long range machine – where we flew with the same cabin crews who were dual qualified – first with the Vanguard fleet – then the T3s. I was accepted by most of them because I spoke wiv an Essex accent, wasn’t up my a@se and many took me to be “gay” – which I wasn’t but played along with (including snogging another co-pilot at a party - really upsetting the apple cart.)
I had two friends who were stopping at the Apollo Palace on the beach in Athens the day after the T3 mid air over Zagreb. The hostie was an ex ballerina whose husband had died in a car crash. She had lost friends in the Ghent Vanguard mid air break up, Papa India and now the latest prang.
Possessed an amazing body as she still danced and exercised it regularly (trust me on this).
Following a very heavy session they went skinny dipping in the sea. Kevin nipped out first, grabbed all of their clothes and ran back to the hotel. After dressing he went to reception and told the staff, who got all their mates out to see what she would do. True to form she walked in without a stitch on, asked for her key and then took the lift (with operator) up to her room whilst being ogled by half the hotel’s staff.
Sadly she died in the Victoria Falls crash a couple of years later.
That’s the classiest story...there are many others as you would expect.
I have always been a member of a flying union and after I emigrated I became an associate Balpa member for a number of years.
Before anyone whinges about Balpa read a little bit of history starting at Jarrow.
In BEA most of us were either in the union or “invited” to join the other lot. It was a necessity. I worked on the technical committee which was designed to advance aviation safety in a way that the “authorities” didn’t. What we don’t read about is the behind the scenes negotiations – often carried out for non Balpa members by members in their spare time. It’s not a perfect system but it helps.
One of my mates had a total strike called which lead to his reinstatement after he upset “the other lot”.
Like Dan Air and BMI, BEA hamsters were sold out when BA was formed...it took many of my mates 20 years to get a command...but it gave us continuing employment (BEA would have eventually folded especially with our safety record) and moi the chance to see how the big boys flew and lived.
I never regretted it and sometimes the grass IS greener.
I don't agree with the apparent stance on Aerotoxic syndrome but one only has to look at some of the last few years newspaper articles (those which haven't "disappeared") to realise that there is a lot more going on behind the scenes which we can only guess at.
Now to debutants.
The pay for both cabin crew and Hamsters was abysmal such that the girls lasted less than a year flying and had to subsidize their salaries. Either you had a rich boyfriend or parents, fiddled the bars or “went out” with first class passengers.
We had a few luxury trips which were worth a week’s wages in allowances...Med nightstops. The best was a three day Nicosia where we stayed in the best hotel..raided the first class bar before we disembarked and started off with a room party in a 5 star suite. We generally ended up skinny dipping in the hotel pool – around 2 AM.
Unfortunately the “training fleet” took most of the cream trips – a great BA tradition - so I only got one every few months.
Did one to Tel Aviv which was so naughty that we called Athens Station on the way back to inform LHR that we were going crew fatigue.
Anyway I was part of the great experiment to put two second officers – one half trained – straight onto the Trident...as we know it miserably failed leading to Britain’s worst aviation disaster unless of course you believe the recent TV stitch up.
This put me on the Trident 2 fleet – long range machine – where we flew with the same cabin crews who were dual qualified – first with the Vanguard fleet – then the T3s. I was accepted by most of them because I spoke wiv an Essex accent, wasn’t up my a@se and many took me to be “gay” – which I wasn’t but played along with (including snogging another co-pilot at a party - really upsetting the apple cart.)
I had two friends who were stopping at the Apollo Palace on the beach in Athens the day after the T3 mid air over Zagreb. The hostie was an ex ballerina whose husband had died in a car crash. She had lost friends in the Ghent Vanguard mid air break up, Papa India and now the latest prang.
Possessed an amazing body as she still danced and exercised it regularly (trust me on this).
Following a very heavy session they went skinny dipping in the sea. Kevin nipped out first, grabbed all of their clothes and ran back to the hotel. After dressing he went to reception and told the staff, who got all their mates out to see what she would do. True to form she walked in without a stitch on, asked for her key and then took the lift (with operator) up to her room whilst being ogled by half the hotel’s staff.
Sadly she died in the Victoria Falls crash a couple of years later.
That’s the classiest story...there are many others as you would expect.
blind pew,
Read your book with interest as a few courses behind you. Can't agree with all of it but where personal opinions/assessments are made it would be very unlikely that we would agree on all of them.
cheers
Read your book with interest as a few courses behind you. Can't agree with all of it but where personal opinions/assessments are made it would be very unlikely that we would agree on all of them.
cheers
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Locked door / Cessnapete
I am very sorry but the anecdotal evidence was two trainers who's conversation at Cranebank was a bit louder than I'd should have been and was within earshot of an independent third party.
Having started an aviation carreer inside BA I found that 95% of the people just wanted to progress in a trouble free way along a normal carreer path but there was a small number of very nasty climbers of the slippery pole who would do just about anything to gain an advantage! I would hazard a guess that it is the 5% who see the BMI people as an easy target.
Having started an aviation carreer inside BA I found that 95% of the people just wanted to progress in a trouble free way along a normal carreer path but there was a small number of very nasty climbers of the slippery pole who would do just about anything to gain an advantage! I would hazard a guess that it is the 5% who see the BMI people as an easy target.
There are tales of BMI guys getting a very hard time at OPC's & LPC's that is not justified by the normal professional standards
If there is a problem then there will be a change of instructor/examiner. Been there, seen it, done it.
Even hardline training Cathay will try another trainer/checker.
That usually sorts the problem.
When you join a different airline you do it their way. Forget the old sop and loyalty; it's their train set - JDI! (Some CX guys will get that
)I've seen so many people fight their 'new' system and fail.
Just jump through THEIR hoops. Good luck to the BMI guys & gals.
p.s. I recollect, at the time of the formation of BA there were the same unfounded complaints. I know for a fact of one guy who was having difficulty and two trainers of my acquaintance bent over backwards to train him to a pass standard. This they failed to achieve and, regrettably, he left.
Both trainers were very unhappy but I am sure that BA passengers expect standards to be maintained.
Last edited by Basil; 26th Aug 2014 at 13:17.
Thanks busy...
Training costs...government...parents...below industry norm salary for first six years...salary deduction for a number of years...working in my old mans factory (and ex wife).... Not complaining about that.. It was the internal politics which led to an abysmal accident rate in BEA and probably influenced the merger negotiations.
There were a lot of anomalies when BA was formed including one guy who had been chopped who came in over his course mates on the seniority list.
BALPA did their best with the acception of the guy who was desperate to get his bum into a 747, but for me it was the best thing that could happen...to get the VC10 in part1 at 28....small fleet, great crew cooperation, old empire destinations, fantastic aircraft and no more bullsh@t.
Training costs...government...parents...below industry norm salary for first six years...salary deduction for a number of years...working in my old mans factory (and ex wife).... Not complaining about that.. It was the internal politics which led to an abysmal accident rate in BEA and probably influenced the merger negotiations.
There were a lot of anomalies when BA was formed including one guy who had been chopped who came in over his course mates on the seniority list.
BALPA did their best with the acception of the guy who was desperate to get his bum into a 747, but for me it was the best thing that could happen...to get the VC10 in part1 at 28....small fleet, great crew cooperation, old empire destinations, fantastic aircraft and no more bullsh@t.
Basil,
Maggie wouldn't let a flag-carrier go bust on her watch so BA was told they had to merge and keep the name. Thats why British Airtours was renamed Caledonian and Airtours staff got made redundant.
Maggie wouldn't let a flag-carrier go bust on her watch so BA was told they had to merge and keep the name. Thats why British Airtours was renamed Caledonian and Airtours staff got made redundant.
Yes I know fans...had a chat with a retired manager who told me how he demoted a mate who was abusing the system.....
The money has gone up too...started on 2grand (1971) I because I had over 250 hours...2 years SO, 2 years AFO, 2 years FO before I got to Dan Air's second year salary...after 6 years (SFO) had my interview with SR who didn't believe my salary...they started on double my gross...plus 46% into the pension fund. In those days I had over 50% deductions which went down to around 20% in CH.
But had to earn it....great fun....just missed the humour although the krauts were wicked ;-)
The money has gone up too...started on 2grand (1971) I because I had over 250 hours...2 years SO, 2 years AFO, 2 years FO before I got to Dan Air's second year salary...after 6 years (SFO) had my interview with SR who didn't believe my salary...they started on double my gross...plus 46% into the pension fund. In those days I had over 50% deductions which went down to around 20% in CH.
But had to earn it....great fun....just missed the humour although the krauts were wicked ;-)
BusyB,
Did that apply to CC? I'm ashamed to admit that I can't remember.
I flew the B757 for Caledonian (née Airtours) and certainly recollect the uniform; no tights permitted - stockings & suspender belts
Airtours staff got made redundant.
I flew the B757 for Caledonian (née Airtours) and certainly recollect the uniform; no tights permitted - stockings & suspender belts
Airtours operated with about 50% temp cabin crew, a lot of whom came back every year. Many of these were not re-employed and a number of permanent ground staff were made redundant as jobs were given to Bcal.
I thoroughly enjoyed my time at Airtours on 737's and classics with a gap year as CC on 73's and a selection of Tristars ( and I didn't wear stockings and suspenders, well not in Public
)
I thoroughly enjoyed my time at Airtours on 737's and classics with a gap year as CC on 73's and a selection of Tristars ( and I didn't wear stockings and suspenders, well not in Public
)
The BA training department has an anonymous feedback loop that prevents any such behaviour. They're far too professional to single out individuals anyway.
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The harsh reality is that the BMI crews are fortunate to be employed, especially by a leading airline, given the basket case BMI became.
...there is anecdotal evidence that some of the old time BA trainers are on a BMI pilot hunt in the Sim.
Having said that, I should add that the best pilots in BMI were some of the most capable I've encountered in a fair number of non-BA airlines.
