Turboprop career progress
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Turboprop career progress
On the current job market, it seems that some companies do not accept turboprop pilots for their Non-Type-Rated positions. (e.g TK, EK, etc.). This fact makes me quite curious, what's the reason behind.
Therefore I would like to start an open discussion about the career opportunities of turboprop crews.
What is the advantage to a company, if you have flown for example an old CRJ200 compared to a new a ATR72-600 or a Q400? Is it the fact that those airplanes have condition levers?
Or their maximum ceilings? That they have to avoid weather more than jets? Or do the pilots to many landings on their short flights? No autothrottle? Are the turboprop pilots maybe worse than others?
Or am I completely wrong? Are there a lot of companies, which do not distinguish between heavy turboprop hours (CS-25, >27 MTOW) and smaller Jets (ERJ, CRJ, Avro, etc)?
In the past, it used to be a normal pilot career path, moving from a turboprop to a Jet, but nowadays, it seems to me, that either you start as Jet pilot or it's even more difficult to become one. But maybe I’m wrong, maybe there are good opportunities around for turboprop pilots. Let’s start the discussion.
Every opinion is highly appreciated!
Therefore I would like to start an open discussion about the career opportunities of turboprop crews.
What is the advantage to a company, if you have flown for example an old CRJ200 compared to a new a ATR72-600 or a Q400? Is it the fact that those airplanes have condition levers?
Or their maximum ceilings? That they have to avoid weather more than jets? Or do the pilots to many landings on their short flights? No autothrottle? Are the turboprop pilots maybe worse than others? Or am I completely wrong? Are there a lot of companies, which do not distinguish between heavy turboprop hours (CS-25, >27 MTOW) and smaller Jets (ERJ, CRJ, Avro, etc)?
In the past, it used to be a normal pilot career path, moving from a turboprop to a Jet, but nowadays, it seems to me, that either you start as Jet pilot or it's even more difficult to become one. But maybe I’m wrong, maybe there are good opportunities around for turboprop pilots. Let’s start the discussion.
Every opinion is highly appreciated!
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IMHO this is not justified but market reality.
I have been working for a company operating turboprops and jets for a long time and have seen lots of turboprop pilots transitioning to jets (both within the company and to companies accepting turboprop pilots for jet positions) without any problems, including Dash 8-300 to 747-400 (CargoLux).
Turboprop pilots should typically have better skills in manual flying and flying without autothrottle (as none of the current turboprops have ATS) which might make them more attractive to companies if the emerging trend towards more weight for basic flying skill should continue.
The requirement for jet hours might be linked to an expectation that jet pilots would typically be familiar with advanced flight guidance/FMS (not true for the older CRJs unless covered by minimum jet tonnage requirements by some operators).
I have been working for a company operating turboprops and jets for a long time and have seen lots of turboprop pilots transitioning to jets (both within the company and to companies accepting turboprop pilots for jet positions) without any problems, including Dash 8-300 to 747-400 (CargoLux).
Turboprop pilots should typically have better skills in manual flying and flying without autothrottle (as none of the current turboprops have ATS) which might make them more attractive to companies if the emerging trend towards more weight for basic flying skill should continue.
The requirement for jet hours might be linked to an expectation that jet pilots would typically be familiar with advanced flight guidance/FMS (not true for the older CRJs unless covered by minimum jet tonnage requirements by some operators).
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I made the move from Q400 to 737-800 around a year ago. Very fortunate that my new employer does not discriminate against TP drivers, and their requirement is simply 2,500hrs TT and 1,000hrs EFIS Multicrew >10t MTOW. And they pay for the type rating.
Frankly, the 737 is a much easier day out that the Dash. It's smoother, quieter, above most of the weather most of the time, and best of all it has hot food. It might have a comedy overhead panel, but apart from that it's easier to operate, has fewer gotchas and isn't constantly trying to give you an altitude bust. Granted the FMC is more sophisticated, and the choice of VNAV, level change and V/S give you more ways to cock-up the descent, but once you've got your head round the systems, the only real challenge compared to a TP is getting it to slow down. And in the sim, it's an absolute pussycat on 1 engine compared to the Q400. The only time I'd take a Dash over the 737 is in gusty crosswind conditions - other than that, it's all good.
Why do many airlines disregard TP experience and insist on jet time? I really can't think of a valid reason. If you were transferring from something ancient like an F27 or a Shed, the transition to EFIS / FMS and much higher speeds might be a big challenge for some people, but the likes of the Q400, Saab 2000 and newer ATRs have full glass flight decks, and in the case of the Dash and Saab, they are pretty quick as well.
Alpine Flyer is probably right about the market reality. If airlines have enough decent applicants with jet experience, some might prefer not to bother with TP pilots because of a perceived training risk from the 'step up'. IMHO, the risk is no different to anyone converting from another type, and turboprop experience is just as valuable as jet time.
Frankly, the 737 is a much easier day out that the Dash. It's smoother, quieter, above most of the weather most of the time, and best of all it has hot food. It might have a comedy overhead panel, but apart from that it's easier to operate, has fewer gotchas and isn't constantly trying to give you an altitude bust. Granted the FMC is more sophisticated, and the choice of VNAV, level change and V/S give you more ways to cock-up the descent, but once you've got your head round the systems, the only real challenge compared to a TP is getting it to slow down. And in the sim, it's an absolute pussycat on 1 engine compared to the Q400. The only time I'd take a Dash over the 737 is in gusty crosswind conditions - other than that, it's all good.
Why do many airlines disregard TP experience and insist on jet time? I really can't think of a valid reason. If you were transferring from something ancient like an F27 or a Shed, the transition to EFIS / FMS and much higher speeds might be a big challenge for some people, but the likes of the Q400, Saab 2000 and newer ATRs have full glass flight decks, and in the case of the Dash and Saab, they are pretty quick as well.
Alpine Flyer is probably right about the market reality. If airlines have enough decent applicants with jet experience, some might prefer not to bother with TP pilots because of a perceived training risk from the 'step up'. IMHO, the risk is no different to anyone converting from another type, and turboprop experience is just as valuable as jet time.
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Turboprop career progress
Agreed.there is a timescale though and too many turboprop hours can be as much of an obstacle as not enough. There are a few carriers who still value TP time but sadly becoming fewer and fewer. If I were starting out again, I would still start on TP but really start looking elsewhere after 1000hrs.its becoming more and more difficult to find opportunities to move to jets, not impossible but definitely fading.
Good luck
Good luck
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Sunexpress takes people from the Q400 as DEC on the B737.
Going direct entry to the 73 from the Bus can be more complicated if someone has no other previous experince in more conventional planes
Not talking about job, money etc... the Q is the most enjoyable plane I've flown, it's still a pilot's airpalne
Going direct entry to the 73 from the Bus can be more complicated if someone has no other previous experince in more conventional planes
Not talking about job, money etc... the Q is the most enjoyable plane I've flown, it's still a pilot's airpalne
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Two things:
point one - on current market we have far too much applicants for any job, which gives birth to all kind of strange and non-rational pre-selection criteria - it's just to keep the number of resumees to look at down
point two - most of the TP pilots are older, so denying them their seniority keeps the less formable ones out, without giving an open flank to political correctness.
point one - on current market we have far too much applicants for any job, which gives birth to all kind of strange and non-rational pre-selection criteria - it's just to keep the number of resumees to look at down
point two - most of the TP pilots are older, so denying them their seniority keeps the less formable ones out, without giving an open flank to political correctness.
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"On the current job market, it seems that some companies do not accept turboprop pilots for their Non-Type-Rated positions."
and
"on current market we have far too much applicants for any job, which gives birth to all kind of strange and non-rational pre-selection criteria - it's just to keep the number of resumees to look at down"
The last quote has the answer: lazy recruiting!
Wait for the shortage that's not too far off (look at how so many are advertising for the first time for ages) and turbo-prop pilots will become popular again.
and
"on current market we have far too much applicants for any job, which gives birth to all kind of strange and non-rational pre-selection criteria - it's just to keep the number of resumees to look at down"
The last quote has the answer: lazy recruiting!
Wait for the shortage that's not too far off (look at how so many are advertising for the first time for ages) and turbo-prop pilots will become popular again.
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to be honest this is not just about turboprop vs. jet time...
this is about the whole profession... when "jet-fam trainings"( for good money) have more "value" than a good few hundred hours of real stick time towing gliders, dropping jumpers etc. with thousands of T/Os and landings learning x-wind techinques and airmanship that apply to ALL airplanes...
...that's the problem right from the start... real flying experience has no value nowadays...until there's a generation in the left seat who did the towing who flew the turboprops etc...
this is about the whole profession... when "jet-fam trainings"( for good money) have more "value" than a good few hundred hours of real stick time towing gliders, dropping jumpers etc. with thousands of T/Os and landings learning x-wind techinques and airmanship that apply to ALL airplanes...
...that's the problem right from the start... real flying experience has no value nowadays...until there's a generation in the left seat who did the towing who flew the turboprops etc...
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In some ways ryr/OAA and ezy/ctc now form an unofficial "apprenticeship" arrangement available for jet operators throughout Europe. Although many Airlines do take rated/tp/ex mil etc it is interesting to note the amount of new hires follow the path into ryr and ezy via the big schools, that then push on to other operators.
From the airline perspective, and should the number of leavers be manageable then it could provide an on going revenue stream, for sure the schools enjoy the benefits of this movement of labour....
My own opinion is that this well trodden path has in many ways absorbed the majority of the opportunities for the the traditional "varied experience" path.
This route is primarily driven of course by the financials and not ability, which I suspect the OP is alluding to
Unfortunately as disappointing as it is, it is where The UK is at present (and EU), not just in the aviation industry but in all aspects of life.
From the airline perspective, and should the number of leavers be manageable then it could provide an on going revenue stream, for sure the schools enjoy the benefits of this movement of labour....
My own opinion is that this well trodden path has in many ways absorbed the majority of the opportunities for the the traditional "varied experience" path.
This route is primarily driven of course by the financials and not ability, which I suspect the OP is alluding to
Unfortunately as disappointing as it is, it is where The UK is at present (and EU), not just in the aviation industry but in all aspects of life.
Not a long time ago I decided to upgrade to PIC on a turboprop and fly from home rather to 'upgrade' to jet f/o position within the company, based abroad.
I guess I'm a stranger in this strange business..
I guess I'm a stranger in this strange business..
Welcome to the world of P2F. Why upgrade someone with reasonable experience but who is not willing to pay for a new type if there are plenty of youngsters out there willing to go the 'extra mile'?
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It has been stated on this forum that this route is in fact the only P2F type arrangement in the UK (it's fair to say it's not P2F in its truest sense as there is little evidence of this type of arrangement in the UK since 2008. But it is difficult to argue against the fact it is actually payment of sorts to jump the queue. And on analysis the courses do seem a tad excessive cost wise)
It's is also a common misconception that those choosing this path are youngsters, the majority aren't teens early 20s but older in some cases much older.
It has certainly created a glass ceiling for the majority of the guts in the UK effectively cutting the jobs into two separate markets. Not 100% but certainly a high percentage. It's an accountants utopia
It's is also a common misconception that those choosing this path are youngsters, the majority aren't teens early 20s but older in some cases much older.
It has certainly created a glass ceiling for the majority of the guts in the UK effectively cutting the jobs into two separate markets. Not 100% but certainly a high percentage. It's an accountants utopia
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Those who reject applications from turbo-prop pilots are plainly ignorant, unenlightened and doing their companies a disservice. Or they have poor instructors, or both. I am an average pilot, maybe even less than average, and I found the transition from steam (F27) to the space age (F100) pretty trivial. I had good instructors and went through on plan. And this also shows how pointless the EFIS requirement is as well. What companies really want are trainable pilots. Those who look for hours of this and hours of that are really showing their ineptitude in recruitment, frequently lead by the numpties in Human Remains who are often responsible for some of the ridiculous selection criteria. These lovely people just don't have the courage to ask for a licence, currency and a willingness to learn.
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Are there a lot of companies, which do not distinguish between heavy turboprop hours (CS-25, >27 MTOW) and smaller Jets (ERJ, CRJ, Avro, etc)?
We have a broad spectrum. Obviously TR is preferable for speed/cost of entry, but after that we have many TP drivers from many different backgrounds - C130, Electra, ATP, ATR. Jetstream and probably others. All convert on time and are great assets.
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I also moved from TP to Jet with no problem.
Nowdays having a JOC (JOKE?) with 0 hours is better than having 2000 hours TP time.
For people with x thousand hours of turboprop in wind and icing condition, they can apply to this
Job Description
We're pleased to announce that we're hiring CADET First Officers A320 for one of our clients, WIZZAIR
Minimum Requirements First Officers Type Rated Cadet Level:
Minimum 500 hours aircraft flying time(this may include the base training for the type rating issue(1)
Minimum EASA/JAR FCL1(or Ukraine equivalent) CPL with ATPL theory knowledge completed
Valid and current A320 type rating(2)
Last flight with preceding 6 months (A320, SEP or MEP)
Minimum ICAO level 4 English Proficiency
Minimum Requirements First Officers Non Type Rated Cadet Level:
Minimum 500 hours aircraftflying time(1)
Minimum EASA/ JAR FCL1(or Ukraine equivalent) CPL with ATPL theory knowledge completed
A valid MCC certificate and course program(3)
A valid JOC certificate and course program(3)
Valid and current ME-IR(4)
Last flight within preceding 6 months(SEP or MEP)
Minimum ICAO level 4 English Proficiency
NOTES:
Aircraft flying time is time flown in an aircraft. Simulator time must not be included in this time
The type rating must have at least 6 months validity on the date of joining, as new candidates only complete an OPC on starting
A MCC course certificate is required if a multi-crew(JAR-25) aircraft has not previously been flown. A JOC course certificate is required if a turbo-jet aircraft has not previously been flown.
For Non Type Rated and cadet level pilots, a minimum 3 month validity on the type rating or ME-IR is required for completion of the Airbus Type Rating Course. The IR must be valid until the completion of the skills test.
Before an interview date is offered, all the minimum requirements must be met. Interviews will no longer be offered with items missing from the requirements. If not annotated on the licence, a certificate will be required as proof of having completed ATPL theory subjects.
If you fit all the requirements, please visit our webiste:
www.confair.eu and fill in the online application form and please put in the markers field:WIZZ003
Thank you very much and hopefully we will be meeting eachother soon!!
Nowdays having a JOC (JOKE?) with 0 hours is better than having 2000 hours TP time.
For people with x thousand hours of turboprop in wind and icing condition, they can apply to this
Job Description
We're pleased to announce that we're hiring CADET First Officers A320 for one of our clients, WIZZAIR
Minimum Requirements First Officers Type Rated Cadet Level:
Minimum 500 hours aircraft flying time(this may include the base training for the type rating issue(1)
Minimum EASA/JAR FCL1(or Ukraine equivalent) CPL with ATPL theory knowledge completed
Valid and current A320 type rating(2)
Last flight with preceding 6 months (A320, SEP or MEP)
Minimum ICAO level 4 English Proficiency
Minimum Requirements First Officers Non Type Rated Cadet Level:
Minimum 500 hours aircraftflying time(1)
Minimum EASA/ JAR FCL1(or Ukraine equivalent) CPL with ATPL theory knowledge completed
A valid MCC certificate and course program(3)
A valid JOC certificate and course program(3)
Valid and current ME-IR(4)
Last flight within preceding 6 months(SEP or MEP)
Minimum ICAO level 4 English Proficiency
NOTES:
Aircraft flying time is time flown in an aircraft. Simulator time must not be included in this time
The type rating must have at least 6 months validity on the date of joining, as new candidates only complete an OPC on starting
A MCC course certificate is required if a multi-crew(JAR-25) aircraft has not previously been flown. A JOC course certificate is required if a turbo-jet aircraft has not previously been flown.
For Non Type Rated and cadet level pilots, a minimum 3 month validity on the type rating or ME-IR is required for completion of the Airbus Type Rating Course. The IR must be valid until the completion of the skills test.
Before an interview date is offered, all the minimum requirements must be met. Interviews will no longer be offered with items missing from the requirements. If not annotated on the licence, a certificate will be required as proof of having completed ATPL theory subjects.
If you fit all the requirements, please visit our webiste:
www.confair.eu and fill in the online application form and please put in the markers field:WIZZ003
Thank you very much and hopefully we will be meeting eachother soon!!
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Locked seat syndrome
Agreed the big schools/pilot mills and the advent of MPL have reduced the opportunities for experienced TP pilots but also for all who undertook an apprenticeship so called self improver route. This means a TP Captain stays in seat longer, the FO can't upgrade to Captain and is squeezed by lower ts&cs of new MPL cadets joining. Meanwhile the experienced FIs and ex Mil can't get a look in for their first airline job.
Sadly P2F is alive and well in the UK and EU even in 2014. Whilst EZY may have stopped what they allowed in 2008/2009, the Flexi cadet scheme is still poorly paid under the sub contracted scheme. RYR/CAE TR scheme does not gtee a call for employment and the vast majority of FOs are effectively self employed but with one customer which is questioned by the tax authorities across the EU.
Have a look at the a330 scheme run by iago: P2F pax continues - even in the UK ! [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums
Interesting that Flybe have cut back on jets and gone more TP over past couple of years.
Some enlightened employers realise the folly of zero to hero and demand their MPL cadets get TP or regional time before flying JAR25 jets.
Thankfully our American cousins have gone the other way - some (mostly pilot mill employees) complain its 1430h too far when an MPL can be achieved with just 70h real flying.
Biz jet world still seem to appreciate TP pilot experience and some such companies start employees on B200.
Sadly P2F is alive and well in the UK and EU even in 2014. Whilst EZY may have stopped what they allowed in 2008/2009, the Flexi cadet scheme is still poorly paid under the sub contracted scheme. RYR/CAE TR scheme does not gtee a call for employment and the vast majority of FOs are effectively self employed but with one customer which is questioned by the tax authorities across the EU.
Have a look at the a330 scheme run by iago: P2F pax continues - even in the UK ! [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums
Interesting that Flybe have cut back on jets and gone more TP over past couple of years.
Some enlightened employers realise the folly of zero to hero and demand their MPL cadets get TP or regional time before flying JAR25 jets.
Thankfully our American cousins have gone the other way - some (mostly pilot mill employees) complain its 1430h too far when an MPL can be achieved with just 70h real flying.
Biz jet world still seem to appreciate TP pilot experience and some such companies start employees on B200.
