LH cancels 3,800 flights due to pilot strike
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Europe
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bigmouth, it's because proon is not for pilots anymore, it's full of spotters... 
Main dog, excellent post, spot on 100% my man.
Never ceases to amaze me that as professional flight crew there are some among us who wish to assist management in the race to the bottom. They must be management wannabes, turkey's don't vote for Christmas.
Main dog, excellent post, spot on 100% my man.
Never ceases to amaze me that as professional flight crew there are some among us who wish to assist management in the race to the bottom. They must be management wannabes, turkey's don't vote for Christmas.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Age: 47
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I salute you guys, thank you for standing up to the continuous decline in our profession. I don't care how much it costs them, obviously, they can afford it. Because fixing the problem would be a lot cheaper than letting you go on strike.
I wish we had as many willing professionals showing such unity in my patch of grass.
Best of luck.
I wish we had as many willing professionals showing such unity in my patch of grass.
Best of luck.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: US/EU
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From today's NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/03/bu...es-a-line.html
Some strong whiffs of elitism on this board, not unlike what one encounters with some doctors. Yes, we all know about and appreciate your professionalism, but you should not be surprised when many in the general population find it difficult to sympathize with those earning four to five times what they earn who then go on strike because they don't want to be forced to wait until they are 61 to retire. I'm not making any judgment about that, but you also can't avoid human nature, especially in these economic times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/03/bu...es-a-line.html
Some strong whiffs of elitism on this board, not unlike what one encounters with some doctors. Yes, we all know about and appreciate your professionalism, but you should not be surprised when many in the general population find it difficult to sympathize with those earning four to five times what they earn who then go on strike because they don't want to be forced to wait until they are 61 to retire. I'm not making any judgment about that, but you also can't avoid human nature, especially in these economic times.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: middle of nowhere
Posts: 312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Young people strive to get the best jobs. When they fail assessment or tests they subsequently take up the B or C-team jobs and henceforth tune in to the shallow song of mainstream media shouting down the top earners.
Talent follows renumeration, i guess the romantic communist principles have sufficiently proven wrong. If unilateral reductions from regular employers are to be the norm, talent will go the other way. Most probably more sleazy lawyers and rogue bankers, that's where today's government allows the big buck to remain.
When the bigmouthed shouters mentioned above have their own contracts unilaterally changed, they go on strike. Why not, it's their right. When other go on strike and mess up the cosy everyday of Mr. and Mrs. Everybody, they are blamed. Normally it's called double standard.
When accidents happen the same shouters from all sides call for better quality, better training, better everything. That there needs to be talent to achieve this is brushed under the carpet, the industry says everyone is capable of doing right with the adequate training AND (certainly) their superior product .... They are constantly proven wrong.
When the very same shouters go to purchase their next air travel ticket, they only look at the price. Everything above is forgotten.
The conditions for the LH colleagues might be high, but don't we all wish to have the same? Don't we feel deep down that we deserve the same?
If not, i feel sorry for you having failed the assessment!
Talent follows renumeration, i guess the romantic communist principles have sufficiently proven wrong. If unilateral reductions from regular employers are to be the norm, talent will go the other way. Most probably more sleazy lawyers and rogue bankers, that's where today's government allows the big buck to remain.
When the bigmouthed shouters mentioned above have their own contracts unilaterally changed, they go on strike. Why not, it's their right. When other go on strike and mess up the cosy everyday of Mr. and Mrs. Everybody, they are blamed. Normally it's called double standard.
When accidents happen the same shouters from all sides call for better quality, better training, better everything. That there needs to be talent to achieve this is brushed under the carpet, the industry says everyone is capable of doing right with the adequate training AND (certainly) their superior product .... They are constantly proven wrong.
When the very same shouters go to purchase their next air travel ticket, they only look at the price. Everything above is forgotten.
The conditions for the LH colleagues might be high, but don't we all wish to have the same? Don't we feel deep down that we deserve the same?
If not, i feel sorry for you having failed the assessment!
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: in the barrel
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From today's NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/03/bu...es-a-line.html
Some strong whiffs of elitism on this board, not unlike what one encounters with some doctors. Yes, we all know about and appreciate your professionalism, but you should not be surprised when many in the general population find it difficult to sympathize with those earning four to five times what they earn who then go on strike because they don't want to be forced to wait until they are 61 to retire. I'm not making any judgment about that, but you also can't avoid human nature, especially in these economic times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/03/bu...es-a-line.html
Some strong whiffs of elitism on this board, not unlike what one encounters with some doctors. Yes, we all know about and appreciate your professionalism, but you should not be surprised when many in the general population find it difficult to sympathize with those earning four to five times what they earn who then go on strike because they don't want to be forced to wait until they are 61 to retire. I'm not making any judgment about that, but you also can't avoid human nature, especially in these economic times.
Instead of supporting those who strive to preserve a decent work environment, people are envious. "Why should you do better than us" is the common phrase, which shows how much disunited employers already are when it comes to standing against decaying wages and work conditions.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, my impression is that the NYT article is not representing the mainstream of public opion, not even the full reporting in business friendly publications like Handelsblatt.
VC has a good reputation as an advocate for flight safety, and they were up to now not being perceived as an aggressive player in labor conflicts. The norm in Germany is that there is only one union representing all employees in a company, so e.g. for Siemens and BMW, it's the metal worker's union which will also do negotiations on behalf of the engineers, the administrators, the cooks and the janitors (unless these service jobs have been outsourced, that is).
Resentment from the big unions usually surfaces when there is a specialty union representing only one profession with a small number of employees that can do maximum damage calls a strike to demand substantially more than the big unions are able to negotiate for the rest of the employees, e.g UFO (LH cabin crew), GdL (traindrivers) or in this case VC.
One the one hand, VC are calling for a 10% raise and a continuation of the generous retirement package (the total amount of the retirement fund is 12 bn €, about half of LH's total retirement obligations), on the other hand LH management has been aggressively slashing employee benefits and promising its shareholders (three anglo funds being the largest with a total of 15%) 2.3 bn € operating profit for next year.
Interesting graphic about pilot pay:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/images/i...atOriginal.jpg
Now why are some major players like AF missing?
How do Etihad and the likes get away with paying so little?
VC has a good reputation as an advocate for flight safety, and they were up to now not being perceived as an aggressive player in labor conflicts. The norm in Germany is that there is only one union representing all employees in a company, so e.g. for Siemens and BMW, it's the metal worker's union which will also do negotiations on behalf of the engineers, the administrators, the cooks and the janitors (unless these service jobs have been outsourced, that is).
Resentment from the big unions usually surfaces when there is a specialty union representing only one profession with a small number of employees that can do maximum damage calls a strike to demand substantially more than the big unions are able to negotiate for the rest of the employees, e.g UFO (LH cabin crew), GdL (traindrivers) or in this case VC.
One the one hand, VC are calling for a 10% raise and a continuation of the generous retirement package (the total amount of the retirement fund is 12 bn €, about half of LH's total retirement obligations), on the other hand LH management has been aggressively slashing employee benefits and promising its shareholders (three anglo funds being the largest with a total of 15%) 2.3 bn € operating profit for next year.
Interesting graphic about pilot pay:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/images/i...atOriginal.jpg
Now why are some major players like AF missing?
How do Etihad and the likes get away with paying so little?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: ...
Posts: 3,753
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.handelsblatt.com/images/i...atOriginal.jpg
Because the table is completely wrong
Easyjet Spain doesn't even exist anymore.
EasyJet France: captain starting at 132.000 basic + sector pay
Considering guaranteed loyalty pay (5% 3 years in company, 10% 5 years in company, 15% 10 years in company, payable every year not just anniversaries), so year 10 in company (not rank) this becomes 151.800 + sector pay maximum. Sector pay is about 20k a year.
Euros offcourse.
Easyjet UK: approx 110k basic + sector pay. Loyalty pay is the same as above. Rising to approx 125k basic + sector pay. Values in euros, converted with 1.20 exchange rate
Salaries in ethihad emirates are taxfree. Plus I believe the numbers are wrong. They would do better comparing take-home pay!
Anyway to me it looks like someone is trying very hard to make it look like Lufthansa pilots earn double of most their colleagues in other airlines... Which is simply not true.
Because the table is completely wrong
Easyjet Spain doesn't even exist anymore.
EasyJet France: captain starting at 132.000 basic + sector pay
Considering guaranteed loyalty pay (5% 3 years in company, 10% 5 years in company, 15% 10 years in company, payable every year not just anniversaries), so year 10 in company (not rank) this becomes 151.800 + sector pay maximum. Sector pay is about 20k a year.
Euros offcourse.
Easyjet UK: approx 110k basic + sector pay. Loyalty pay is the same as above. Rising to approx 125k basic + sector pay. Values in euros, converted with 1.20 exchange rate
Salaries in ethihad emirates are taxfree. Plus I believe the numbers are wrong. They would do better comparing take-home pay!
Anyway to me it looks like someone is trying very hard to make it look like Lufthansa pilots earn double of most their colleagues in other airlines... Which is simply not true.
Last edited by 737Jock; 3rd Apr 2014 at 08:58.
short flights long nights
As far as that table goes, it seems to be missing quite a bit in regards to EK. I'm not sure where the numbers come from.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Here and there
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just got some facts out of a German news magazine; please excuse the possibly bad translation:
How much pilots really work? What do they earn? How much does Lufthansa cost the strike? A compilation.
+ 29 to 33 months at least takes the training to become a commercial airline pilot at Bremen Pilot School of Lufthansa.
+ Approximately 30 percent of income improvements have fought after several work stoppages in 2001 by the pilots and their union cockpit.
+ 40 percent of total pension expenses, which makes Lufthansa for about 84,000 active or former employees in the country, benefit the approximately 8,400 pilots, ten percent of the workforce.
About 60 percent of the month is a pilot working - only a third of the time he is at home.
+ By 60 percent, to more than a billion euros, Lufthansa has increased its profit in 2013, when all non-recurring items are eliminated from the result.
+ 80 hours flight service per month pilots may operate in the cockpit according to the law. A flight operation can take up to 16 hours including preparation and waiting times. Overall, a 40-hour week.
+ The pilots of Lufthansa and German Wings fly their customers, according to the coming summer flight schedule, to 235 destinations in 78 countries.
+ 3800 flights are canceled during the three-day strike.
+ 5400 pilots pare on strike from Wednesday to Friday.
+ 20,000 additional passengers per day will use the train Deutsche Bahn, on Friday there will be more.
+ 60,000 to 80,000 euros does it cost to become a commercial pilot, according to the union Vereinigung Cockpit.
+ Up to 124.000 € per year is in the transitional care for a 55-year-old captain to the entrance to the official retirement age of 65.
+ 150,000 e-mails and text messages with strike information Lufthansa has sent to their customers.
+ Up to 150,000 Euro per year earning the captains of the Lufthansa Group belonging Swiss.
+ Around 260,000 euros, including allowances, per year earned a Lufthansa pilot who has been through all salary levels in the course of his career.
+ 425,000 passengers of Lufthansa and German Wings are affected by the three day strike.
+ In the "mid single digit" millions of lost revenue to the airport will be missed by Passenger, takeoff and landing fees, according to the airport operator Fraport.
+ With around 25 million euros costs every day of the strike; LH estimates a "high double-digit millions" loss for the three days off.
+ 104.6 million passengers carried by Lufthansa German Wings, Swiss and Austrian Airlines in 2013.
+ 181 million passengers took off and landed at German airports in 2013, the daily average of just under 500,000 passengers.
+ More than 1 billion euros has made provisions for the retirement of its pilots with 55 years Lufthansa.
+ Around 2.6 billion passengers were transported, according to the Federal Statistical Office in 2012 over the rail, which are 14 times as many travelers as in air traffic.
+ 5.9 billion euros spent the Lufthansa Group in 2013 for the salaries and wages and nearly 1.5 billion euros for social security or pensions.
Source: http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/...-a-962200.html
How much pilots really work? What do they earn? How much does Lufthansa cost the strike? A compilation.
+ 29 to 33 months at least takes the training to become a commercial airline pilot at Bremen Pilot School of Lufthansa.
+ Approximately 30 percent of income improvements have fought after several work stoppages in 2001 by the pilots and their union cockpit.
+ 40 percent of total pension expenses, which makes Lufthansa for about 84,000 active or former employees in the country, benefit the approximately 8,400 pilots, ten percent of the workforce.
About 60 percent of the month is a pilot working - only a third of the time he is at home.
+ By 60 percent, to more than a billion euros, Lufthansa has increased its profit in 2013, when all non-recurring items are eliminated from the result.
+ 80 hours flight service per month pilots may operate in the cockpit according to the law. A flight operation can take up to 16 hours including preparation and waiting times. Overall, a 40-hour week.
+ The pilots of Lufthansa and German Wings fly their customers, according to the coming summer flight schedule, to 235 destinations in 78 countries.
+ 3800 flights are canceled during the three-day strike.
+ 5400 pilots pare on strike from Wednesday to Friday.
+ 20,000 additional passengers per day will use the train Deutsche Bahn, on Friday there will be more.
+ 60,000 to 80,000 euros does it cost to become a commercial pilot, according to the union Vereinigung Cockpit.
+ Up to 124.000 € per year is in the transitional care for a 55-year-old captain to the entrance to the official retirement age of 65.
+ 150,000 e-mails and text messages with strike information Lufthansa has sent to their customers.
+ Up to 150,000 Euro per year earning the captains of the Lufthansa Group belonging Swiss.
+ Around 260,000 euros, including allowances, per year earned a Lufthansa pilot who has been through all salary levels in the course of his career.
+ 425,000 passengers of Lufthansa and German Wings are affected by the three day strike.
+ In the "mid single digit" millions of lost revenue to the airport will be missed by Passenger, takeoff and landing fees, according to the airport operator Fraport.
+ With around 25 million euros costs every day of the strike; LH estimates a "high double-digit millions" loss for the three days off.
+ 104.6 million passengers carried by Lufthansa German Wings, Swiss and Austrian Airlines in 2013.
+ 181 million passengers took off and landed at German airports in 2013, the daily average of just under 500,000 passengers.
+ More than 1 billion euros has made provisions for the retirement of its pilots with 55 years Lufthansa.
+ Around 2.6 billion passengers were transported, according to the Federal Statistical Office in 2012 over the rail, which are 14 times as many travelers as in air traffic.
+ 5.9 billion euros spent the Lufthansa Group in 2013 for the salaries and wages and nearly 1.5 billion euros for social security or pensions.
Source: http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/...-a-962200.html
Last edited by ChiefT; 3rd Apr 2014 at 15:27. Reason: Forgot the source, sorry.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: ***
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ChiefT, quoting without naming the source is not common practice anywhere.
The source is "Der Spiegel online".
And it is a bunch of nonsense.
I am too lazy to think about each one, but
is obviously wrong.
As a pilot you should know this. Also the max hours can be increased with enlarged crew.
The source is "Der Spiegel online".
And it is a bunch of nonsense.
I am too lazy to think about each one, but
80 hours flight service per month pilots may operate in the cockpit according to the law. A flight operation can take up to 16 hours including preparation and waiting times. Overall, a 40-hour week.
As a pilot you should know this. Also the max hours can be increased with enlarged crew.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Here and there
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With regards to this table http://www.handelsblatt.com/images/i...atOriginal.jpg and from where the figures come: Have a look at the bottom of the table, where all sources are named. 
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Here and there
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, "Admiral346", if pointing on a fail, then you should be able to name the source correctly.
But thanks, I simply forgot it and added it already.
In content, it is not necessarily my opinion; I simply posted the facts published by DER SPIEGEL. Nothing else.
But thanks, I simply forgot it and added it already.
In content, it is not necessarily my opinion; I simply posted the facts published by DER SPIEGEL. Nothing else.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East end.
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good for LH pilots! I am behind them standing up for our profession 100%.
Really happy to see them stand up for the next generation hired after 2014. No two-tier B-scale solutions. It only serves to divide.
... and for those working at LCCs or others who think Legacy carriers have it too good - remember that is the bar that your scale is based from. If it goes down for them - it will surely go down at a LCCs and non-union shops to match.
It's their right to negotiate and if you have a problem with it and want to just get what you are told go to China.
Really happy to see them stand up for the next generation hired after 2014. No two-tier B-scale solutions. It only serves to divide.
... and for those working at LCCs or others who think Legacy carriers have it too good - remember that is the bar that your scale is based from. If it goes down for them - it will surely go down at a LCCs and non-union shops to match.
It's their right to negotiate and if you have a problem with it and want to just get what you are told go to China.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: in a cigar lounge smoking a Partagas P2
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ Hussar 54
You write :
That is utter 
.
The reason Air Berlin is investigated is becuse it has failed to report the annual numbers in time and has delayed it twice, which is not permitted by German law.
Also, the capital lenders want to take it out of the stock exchange so as to not to endanger landing rights in case of an Etihad majority stake.
Get your facts right before you step into merde.
Wishing LH pilots the best.
You write :
By amazing coincidence, just as Lufthansa has a slight problem on their horizon, the EU has almost simultaneously announced that it is to investigate two recent airline deals -
Etihad's investment in Air Berlin - which, again, by complete coincidence just happens to be Lufthansa's only serious competitor in the German market....
Etihad's investment in Air Berlin - which, again, by complete coincidence just happens to be Lufthansa's only serious competitor in the German market....
.The reason Air Berlin is investigated is becuse it has failed to report the annual numbers in time and has delayed it twice, which is not permitted by German law.
Also, the capital lenders want to take it out of the stock exchange so as to not to endanger landing rights in case of an Etihad majority stake.
Get your facts right before you step into merde.
Wishing LH pilots the best.
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes, you're absolutely correct - Air Berlin has failed to file its financial statements on time....Which in every EU country is a criminal offence to be resolved by each individual country's financial and tax authorities....
It is estimated that at any moment in time over a million corporate entities around the EU ( whether major publically quoted companies such as Air Berlin, or whether Joe Soap's one-man painting and decorating company ) are late filing their accounts, but I don't recall, ever, the EU deciding that one of their zillions of commissions is going to investigate the circumstances of why one of these millions of companies is late with its filing....
So I wonder why they have now suddenly decided that it needs an EU commission to investigate the reason why Air Berlin are late filing their financial statements....
The answer is, in fact, they haven't....The EU has stated that it is a question of who controls Air Berlin, and just because Etihad have only a minority stake in Air Berlin, it doesn't mean that they don't control Air Berlin....
Shareholdings In European Airlines Face EC Scrutiny
And while they're at it, good old Lufthansa are complaining about Etihad's possible rescue of Alitalia....
And so Delta's investment in Virgin now gets dragged in as well, although it seemed OK when this shareholding was in Singapore's hands....
But without Etihad, Air Berlin is a goner....And let's just have a guess - who has most to gain from Air Berlin going under ??
Wake up at the back !!
It is estimated that at any moment in time over a million corporate entities around the EU ( whether major publically quoted companies such as Air Berlin, or whether Joe Soap's one-man painting and decorating company ) are late filing their accounts, but I don't recall, ever, the EU deciding that one of their zillions of commissions is going to investigate the circumstances of why one of these millions of companies is late with its filing....
So I wonder why they have now suddenly decided that it needs an EU commission to investigate the reason why Air Berlin are late filing their financial statements....
The answer is, in fact, they haven't....The EU has stated that it is a question of who controls Air Berlin, and just because Etihad have only a minority stake in Air Berlin, it doesn't mean that they don't control Air Berlin....
Shareholdings In European Airlines Face EC Scrutiny
And while they're at it, good old Lufthansa are complaining about Etihad's possible rescue of Alitalia....
And so Delta's investment in Virgin now gets dragged in as well, although it seemed OK when this shareholding was in Singapore's hands....
But without Etihad, Air Berlin is a goner....And let's just have a guess - who has most to gain from Air Berlin going under ??
Wake up at the back !!
Last edited by Hussar 54; 3rd Apr 2014 at 19:42. Reason: Fingers and eyes not co-ordinated....
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: On the frontier
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Franz the Problem!
The Same Clown , CEO Franz, who forced Swiss Pilots in 2005/2006 , ging on Strike, tries it now with LH Pilots, good try, maybe he should distribute Croissants in the Terminal like he did. in 2006!
Keep going guys, dont let ihm pull down the Standard!!!
Keep going guys, dont let ihm pull down the Standard!!!
Now I happen to be seriously concerned about the involvement of these Government backed ME carriers outside of their own geography, and the damage they have inflicted on many US and European legacy carriers - enough to have made me question on here, in the past, the EU's lack of interest in ensuring a level playing field for European carriers....It always seemed to me to be stupid that the EU has contributed to the troubles at Olympic, Alitalia, and effectively closed Malev, by specifically denying the ability of EU governments to support their own nations' airlines with their own citizens' taxes whilst at the same time providing an open door for these ME state backed carriers....
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Hyeres, France
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AIRBOURNE....
Why ?
Edited to add that 12 hours later I see that Airbourne perhaps works for LH....
If so, good luck with the strike if you've joined in - it's your company that I have a problem with, not you guys...
Why ?
Edited to add that 12 hours later I see that Airbourne perhaps works for LH....
If so, good luck with the strike if you've joined in - it's your company that I have a problem with, not you guys...
Last edited by Hussar 54; 4th Apr 2014 at 09:13.
