Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

Things have to get worse before they can get better

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

Things have to get worse before they can get better

Old 29th Mar 2014, 17:08
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East end.
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Would you get on a flight knowing the Captain had 18,500 hours and the F/O 2,760 hours?Would you get on a flight knowing the Captain had 18,500 hours and the F/O 2,760 hours?
I don't know, I think that FO number low. Maybe if he was ex-military, or maybe if the majority of it came slogging out 6 or 10 legs a day to put 5 hours in his logbook otherwise I'd expect more if I was putting my family on that flight.
altiplano is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2014, 18:24
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sadly the only thing that causes real change in commercial aviation is a smoking hole with lots of dead bodies.

You mention this at the same time as speculating that airline bean counters will cut training standards which might lead to this. Even if it did, and it has in recent years in a rather major airline, it will be the XAA's who demand an improvement in training standards and not the internal bean counters. They have already run cost/risk assessment scenarios whereby they believe what size and number of 'mis-haps' they can sustain. It will all be down to the XAA's to demand change, but they seem to act retrospectively rather than proactively.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2014, 19:13
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: EU
Age: 46
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
- experience is good - Nobody can argue against that.

Say we have a good candidate for the job - chances are he will make the selection grade for a qualified cadetship scheme. Think BA/LH.
The same candidate would probably also succeed on the self-improvement route.

Imho it all comes down to a good selection process - and equal pay for all who make the grade.


cheers,
hptaccv is offline  
Old 29th Mar 2014, 21:13
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I disagree with some of what lifeafteraviation says. Modern aircraft are not easier to operate than the last generation - automation and FBW modes are getting ever more complex and confusing, especially when they malfunction, and modern airframes are not designed to be hand flown so much, so their handling qualities are worse. Compound that with decreasing training, experience levels and currency in manual/raw data/visual flying because of company SOPs, plus harder and harder rostering and you have increasingly difficult operation, I'd say.

As for it being only managers that say experience levels are irrelevant, many experienced captains on here have repeatedly said that they ave seen many highly capable cadets and suspect experienced FOs. Experience is just one factor in a bundle of requirements to make competent pilots, and many of us over estimate the effect of experience alone.
Aluminium shuffler is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2014, 00:54
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: East end.
Posts: 242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think it's a given we aren't refering to incompetent pilots in this thread. I agree no amount of experience will make up for outright incompetence.

But an inexperienced pilot does not equal an experienced pilot basic aptitude considered roughly equal. It does not even come close, and while it may work out ok on the typical day to day operation - when weather, fuel, ATC, technical or other issues arise I think you would see where experience becomes irreplaceable in a hurry.
altiplano is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2014, 01:00
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: All at sea
Posts: 2,185
Received 143 Likes on 95 Posts
But isn't this debate about whether things will get better for pilots in the future? As in recognition, job opportunities, terms and conditions?


I say "no" - as a lifetime career for anyone starting out today it's all downhill from here.
Mach E Avelli is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2014, 01:41
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: california
Age: 66
Posts: 345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Mach E Avelli- you are right about it being all down hill from here. Pilots need to shift their mindset from being the salaried professional to being skilled workers who negotiate a good wage and fair promotion through collective bargaining. In the same way that train drivers do, they are actually able to negotiate very reasonable conditions. We are to, we have a strong hand to negotiate with.

Companies like ryr do need to be boycotted by experienced Pilots who have options elsewhere. They have failed to comply with simple European wide laws such as paying taxes, or allowing employees a trade union or even an employment contract. The British government has started to close the loopholes specifically exploited by this cowboy operation.
polax52 is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2014, 03:23
  #68 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 63
Posts: 5,170
Received 133 Likes on 60 Posts
Originally Posted by RAT 5
Sadly the only thing that causes real change in commercial aviation is a smoking hole with lots of dead bodies.

You mention this at the same time as speculating that airline bean counters will cut training standards which might lead to this. Even if it did, and it has in recent years in a rather major airline, it will be the XAA's who demand an improvement in training standards and not the internal bean counters. They have already run cost/risk assessment scenarios whereby they believe what size and number of 'mis-haps' they can sustain. It will all be down to the XAA's to demand change, but they seem to act retrospectively rather than proactively.

In the US the Regulator didn't demand change, public opinion did. The politicians saw they had to Do Something so they passed legislation that required the FAA to make an ATPL a requirement for acting as a crew member of an airliner. The FAA didn't want to change the rules, and the airlines sure as hell opposed change but they got over ruled.

The result is the supply of starry eyed 250 wannabes with SJS who are willing to work for peanuts is now totally and completely eliminated. This has already caused the "better" operators to poach crew from the crap operators who are now parking airplanes because they don't have enough pilots. Signing bonus's are now routine and better T & C 's for all, are inevitable.

But like I said earlier until an EU airline has it's "Colgan" nothing will change.......
Big Pistons Forever is online now  
Old 30th Mar 2014, 09:46
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Crawley
Age: 55
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Big pistons you absolutely have it right regarding the mechanics of how the whole thing develops Ts and Cs wise if the American model is introduced.

There always has to be some influx of cadets into the system. But not to the ratio we currently have in the UK (and Europe) it is extremely damaging to the crews and potential crews in the industry.

And while ever Joe Bloggs and hundreds of Joe Bloggs mates can get into the right hand seat of the upper tier of jobs with less than 300 hours experience and over 100k of debt, and then be given a job on the ts and cs at ryanair and ezy and the like. The whole thing will continue to regress as time moves on. Terms and conditions will continue to degrade and as sweeping across the board statement then the power of the relationship between employer and employee becomes imbalanced in the employers favour

Just a possible scenario for consideration. Joe Bloggs attends large fto is given the large fto school propoganda the ignore people on here like myself and others who are out of touch/bitter/failed etc etc (in actual fact I have a genuine interest in how the UK job market is continuing to evolve) Joe then pays lots of money gets into debt but manages to secure a right hand B737 or A320 job at either a blue Irish company or a slightly better quality orange UK company. The cadet has made it, and the long and winding path to TRE and big money is on as promised.

Then on this happy path something happens and Joe loses his job (unlikely but entirely possible)

now Joe is in exactly the same position as lots of other guys out of work with possible bags more experience than him and cannot get a foot in anywhere even though ryanair and ezy are recruiting straight from the ftos in numbers (Joe knows this because he was there in recent years he knows how many cadets are been pushed into the system from the bottom) now Joe sees why there is concern out there outside the bubble of the fto propoganda machine

The arguement about experience can be seen from two ways as is clearly identified on this thread, and there are possibly good and bad points to both in actual fact. Yes too much inexperience is obviously not good, not so much on a nice sunny morning hop to majorca and back but more a tricky night into bilbao in foul wx and problems on board and failures. Experience cannot be replaced in this case however to freshen a team of workforce up cadets are bright quick to learn enthusiastic and on the whole happy with their lot

i am very strongly of the opinion that a steady influx of cadets/apprentices/trainees is absolutely essential to any industry. The idea of having all experienced people is absurd and is not actually effective.

The problem we have in the UK is the ratio of cadets going straight into the better jobs in the better machines and with the better salaries, to what I would refer to as the old self improvers coming through all non integrated programs. This ratio has shifted considerably in the favour of the cadet specifically into ryr and ezy and also in other areas.

This ratio shift is not the only cause for the erosion in both the stature of the career as a whole and the ts and cs regression. But it is definately a very very large part of the reason.

The only winners in this are the employers and the ftos.

Colgan wasnt cadet related. But the following action was definately good for the employees. Across the board. Even for cadet Bloggs as he did actually get the right hand seat of the jet, as like everyone else he had the skills and the determination however it just took him a little longer time wise.

I enjoy flying with cadets but just dont think the current set up is doing ANY of the crews out there any favours. Its actually a wonderful set up if you are on or can somehow get on the payroll of one of the ftos, or if you are a performance manager or accountant at one of the airlines.
Three Lions is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2014, 13:34
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Nearer home than before!
Posts: 524
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So true...
RVF750 is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2014, 22:54
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Aluminium shuffler:
...Modern aircraft are not easier to operate than the last generation - automation and FBW modes are getting ever more complex and confusing, especially when they malfunction, and modern airframes are not designed to be hand flown so much, so their handling qualities are worse...
I appreciate your point. It's true that some old school pilots had a very difficult time transitioning to modern aircraft not because the complexity was so increased but because the implementation of systems integration was so different. Old school auto mechanics these days have similar issues. The transition from purely mechanical skills to complex systems operators. But those pilots were overly dependent on their flying skills IMO and the modern generation of electronics junkies may be more suited to operating computerized aircraft. Like teaching granddad to use his iPad.

I remember when the 757s came out and everybody talked about "glass cockpit experience" as if it was another holy grail box needed to be checked on the way to the big leagues. The facts were later discovered that transitioning from "steam gauges" to glass was statistically easier for pilots than the other way around and the inherent mechanical lag of older panels had actually forced pilots to learn better instrument flying skills (old study....don't ask me to look it up plz).

The point I am making is that modern systems management can be trained in the classroom and simulator far more effectively than the skills needed to fly older aircraft. Competence is certainly a mask for inexperience...not a substitute... but we all need to start somewhere.
lifeafteraviation is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2014, 00:59
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The critical phases of flight, ie taxi, takeoff and landing are still manually controlled as ever they were, perhaps with the very occasional exception when low visibility procedures are in force for autoland. The same manual handling skills are therefore in evidence most days - and arguably more so on days when the wind is blowing as AS alluded to. Most professional airline pilots based in the UK would argue handling skills are still pretty important after the winter we've just had.

I've always felt the real skill though is in effective management, especially of failures, which have become increasingly complex with the advert of new aircraft.

All this while flying more sectors and hours than ever before.
Northern Monkey is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2014, 08:17
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I've always felt the real skill though is in effective management, especially of failures, which have become increasingly complex with the advert of new aircraft
Increasingly complex....maybe. The chance of such complex failures have become increasingly rare though. Still...they are academic and can be taught in a classroom or sim. Personally, I find the systems of modern aircraft much easier to manage... Maybe experience has made it easier, maybe it just easier.
lifeafteraviation is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2014, 17:39
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Lifeafter, that's a fair point. I see a mixture amongst my colleagues, with some old boys not far from retirement who are very averse to the FMC and its related modes and a fairly open interpretation of SOPs, and new guys far too reliant on automatics, FMC and SOP. I consider myself somewhere in the middle, perhaps a little closer to the old school than the new, but the two philosophies are generally very distinct within the age groups and it is an effort to get the youngsters to think for themselves. Once up to speed, they are quite capable, but it does take a while of exposure on the line. Arguably, the old boys can be brought up to speed more quickly and cheaply as their issue is just one of habit - they have to understand the electronics in order to be rated and routinely checked, after all.

Personally, I find it hard to believe things will improve, at least by any considerable margin. There are just too many willing dreamers and the perception is that we have a cushy job. Ask not just passengers and public but any non-pilot in the industry and they all think we earn a fortune, have a simple job, lots of time off and spend the day posing and fending off young girls. Even the crewing and ops guys don't comprehend the crappy hours, the difficulty of an approach in bad conditions with a broken jet, the job insecurity (not just companies folding, but medical issues, fuel prices and so on), the studying and potential consequences of the six-monthly checks, the spy in the cab and so on. Even wannabes don't get it, or they wouldn't sign up to the FTOs. Until we can get others to understand all of what our job entails, not just the '60s glam image, then we won't see anything move in the right direction.
Aluminium shuffler is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2014, 02:44
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,831
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There is nothing terribly difficult about flying a modern airliner once you have the experience
Until the hits the fan of course.....

Cadets are so far up their own arses it actually makes them dangerous! I speak with knowledge......

Give me an FO with HANDLING experience please!!!!
White Knight is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2014, 10:07
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: In a Hangar
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"Things can only get worse before they get better"


I've been reading this on here for the better part of 5 years !
DHC-2 Eater is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2014, 13:19
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: EU
Posts: 1,231
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I don't disagree that the ability to handle the airplane with a reasonable level of skill is important, but the Devil's Advocate in me questions your insinuation that cadets are ok

Until the hits the fan of course.....
My bold.

My point is that the record shows few, if any, incidents or accidents due to low experience or an associated low level of handling ability. By inference, most incidents or accidents happen to experienced pilots.

Provided the Captain is competent, the low experience of the cadet is unlikely to be the cause of the incident or accident. Or so say the stats.... for now...

Personally, I do believe that the overall level of inherent safety is depleted by the cadet recruitment programme at many European Airlines if it is coupled with a regime of early command upgrades.

That the numbers of incidents or accidents is generally on the decrease is quite obviously due to the simplification and reliability of the equipment, the ATC environment, and not due to an influx of better pilots.
Mikehotel152 is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2014, 13:51
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: United States
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That the numbers of incidents or accidents is generally on the decrease is quite obviously due to the simplification and reliability of the equipment, the ATC environment, and not due to an influx of better pilots.
Exactly the point I was making...thank you! Clearly it's difficult to prove, however.
lifeafteraviation is offline  
Old 3rd Apr 2014, 13:56
  #79 (permalink)  
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: TOD
Posts: 2,058
Received 40 Likes on 16 Posts
A new first officer with inexperience is not a problem per se - the attitude is all important. i would rather an inexperienced fo who comes to work with the right attitude than a one thousand hour FO who thinks he has seen it all. Best of all obviously is the guy beside you with good attitude and experience.
speedrestriction is online now  
Old 3rd Apr 2014, 14:07
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Finsbury Park
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
i would rather an inexperienced fo
than a one thousand hour FO who thinks he's seen it all
no difference, a thousand hours = 15 months on line and a winter, that is not experience, unless that's your point.
Alycidon is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.